Out of curiousity, are the maps on DGCR for the old layout or one of the revisions?
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Springwood Players Course extinct!
- Thread starter Tenacious EJ
- Start date
Tenacious EJ
Par Member
So is it perfect? No, and it's not going to be. And neither are 99% of the courses out there. It has issues, and they are known. But the good news is the local club is trying to fix them. As for your suggestion that the baskets be pulled when there are games being played on the fields, I honestly wouldn't object to it. But here's the thing, those fields are already off-limits to casual games. They are primarily for travel clubs to play and practice, so when there is a group there, it's huge. You'll know something is going on and that play is going to be nigh impossible. For folks that don't know the course there could be signs at the kiosk saying "front 9 closed" or something, and the holes could be numbered so if just the baseball fields are in use the back 9 are still playable. There are solutions out there. I don't think pulling up the whole course is the answer, really. And I also don't really understand why there is so much hatred for this course- surely it's not the only one out there with issues. In fact, I know it isn't, but the backlash from people who have never seen it is inexplicable. If it's not your cup of tea, don't play. Think it's poor design, don't play. But honestly, if you're not going to play, and not going to offer solutions to help make it better, I don't see why you care. There's not a huge public call for its removal, there haven't been any injuries to my knowledge, and it makes use of a park that 75% of the time is sitting empty. The non-disc public doesn't care one way or the other, so what's the problem?
Tenacious EJ
Par Member
That map is a bit outdated. 3 has been split in two. 3 now starts at the old 3 gold pad near hole 2's tee and shoots just east of the old blue pad for 3. 4 would then begin at the white pad for 3 as shown on the map. 5 (old 4) has eliminated the gold tee and moved it forward of the old blue tee. 5 on the map is gone completely. 6 has not changed. 7's basket was moved to right by the old blue tee for 8. 8 has changed significantly and plays in the field south of the nasty hill of thorns where 8 used to go. 9 & 10 are unchanged as of yet. 11 has also not yet been changed, but the basket for 12 was moved to the corner of the hill instead on the back side of the field. 13 has been dramatically shortened and tees off next to the large tree halfway up, but some still play from the longer tees. 14-17 haven't been changed. 18 tees off from about midway up the old fairway, and the basket was moved slightly closer to the tee.
The maps on DGCR are of the original layout.
New map along with photos and videos are coming.
Keep in mind that the changes that have been made came only after multiple tournaments with the modifications were held. There were players of all skill levels playing in them. The data from those events were used to address the main issues.
Plankeye some of the issues you stated are addressed with the changes however what you described is from the original layout. Some tees and baskets have been moved already. Parks has not had a chance due to weather and the holidays to remove or relocate some of the old tees.
New map along with photos and videos are coming.
Keep in mind that the changes that have been made came only after multiple tournaments with the modifications were held. There were players of all skill levels playing in them. The data from those events were used to address the main issues.
Plankeye some of the issues you stated are addressed with the changes however what you described is from the original layout. Some tees and baskets have been moved already. Parks has not had a chance due to weather and the holidays to remove or relocate some of the old tees.
I don't need to see any of the other alterations. You're keeping two bad holes (new 3 and 4) so I doubt any other issues will be addressed.
I will repeat what I said earlier, if you have to have mangos due to safety concerns, it is not a good hole.
I will repeat what I said earlier, if you have to have mangos due to safety concerns, it is not a good hole.
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The problem is it is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Get a bunch of lawsuits over poorly designed courses and suddenly parks and recreation risk management practices will restrict disc golf to disc golf-only land, making a lot of land we currently have access to off limits and resulting in it being much harder for courses to get in the ground. Disc golf can successfully utilize multi-use land, but you have to be careful. This design isn't being careful, it's shoving disc golf into places where it doesn't fit. If we keep doing this, the final outcome is going to suck for us. I'd rather pull the bad courses now than wait for decent/good course to get pulled over fears of a lawsuit.
Just because there are worse disc golf courses doesn't make it right. If that was the case anything better than Capaha Park would be OK. The bar for safe disc golf course design can't be that low.
It's tough. He lives 3 houses down the street, and may even have a key to my house. I am pretty well stuck with him. It's like having an untrained puppy.
This is wisdom. How does a golfer know when it is budy or not?
Tenacious EJ
Par Member
So get rid of the thousand other courses that have dangerous throws? Do you not realize that people can and will sue over anything? You can design a perfect disc golf only course and have somebody slip on a tee and sue. I just don't see the difference between Springwood and a thousand other courses in that regard.
I don't know how Springwood compares to a thousand other courses. Any course can spawn a lawsuit, but some are clearly more prone to cause injuries than others. The prudent thing might be
---Get rid of the highest-risk courses, and
---Quit building more like them.
Having not played Springwood, I'm not certain where it falls on that scale. Having seen the maps, I can only guess.
Again, that's the lowest common denominator argument that it's OK for your course to be dangerous because there are other dangerous holes out there. It's not a great argument in your defense.
What makes Springwood stand out in that regard is the number of dangerous holes in the course design and the fact that the overall master plan of the park cannot sustain a disc golf course without the dangerous holes. It makes it a dangerous course with no "fix" because there is no available land to fix it with. The fact is that not all parks can sustain a disc golf course. Whoever thought Springwood Park could sustain one was wrong.
The existence of poorly designed holes and courses does not justify allowing new poorly designed holes or courses to be installed.
Ask UNC how well "course/hole closed" signs work.
UNC's been posting "Hole closed" signs on the teepads for holes 3 and 4 whenever the high ropes course and zipline are in use for as long as I can remember, and people still throw on them. (It's not just the chuckers: in fact, chuckers tend to respect the signs because they recognize they're not that good and can't control their discs; it's the regulars and faux pros who think they know what they're doing who tend to ignore the signs.)
I suspect you weren't around for the Tarheel Tournament back around 2002/2003, when the tournament had to move to Valley Springs because the OEC Director shut down the course the day before the tournament (and threatened to pull the baskets permanently) after multiple groups of players practicing for the tournament ignored the "hole closed" signs on 16 and 18 and threw over/through a group (of paying customers) who were using the low ropes course.(When the course was finally reopened 10 days later—after much apologizing, begging, pleading, and butt-kissing by various memebrs of the Tarheel DG Club, and with the strongly worded warning that the course would be pulled if it happened again—holes 16-18 were gone and several holes had beem rerouted away from the ropes courses, with 0 input from the club and no regard for the shape of a disc flight.
Better yet, ask the P&R folks at Leigh Farm who were constantly having to run players off the course while the park was closed for renovations, despite the locked gate and prominently posted signs announcing that the course was closed.
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- Mar 11, 2011
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I sincerely hope no problems ever go down with this course. I hope we're all wrong and everyone uses it with common sense.
I just want the people involved to look at certain holes, yes the holes you still have planned via the changes and think to yourself.... is there any possibility this could cause a safety issue? Think about that then come on here and tell me about all of the data you used from tourneys and how that all says it is safe.
Doing test runs over a short period of time is pretty meaningless because this course could be in over a period of decades. So if ten years from now someone playing those holes that go beside the houses on the back hits a kid in his backyard and gives him brain damage I hope you bring up the small amount of tourney data you had back in 2014.
Holes should not go between those fields and those houses, it's just dumb. If you can't see that you shouldn't be designing courses. When there is person after person saying the exact same thing that should signal something to you.
I just want the people involved to look at certain holes, yes the holes you still have planned via the changes and think to yourself.... is there any possibility this could cause a safety issue? Think about that then come on here and tell me about all of the data you used from tourneys and how that all says it is safe.
Doing test runs over a short period of time is pretty meaningless because this course could be in over a period of decades. So if ten years from now someone playing those holes that go beside the houses on the back hits a kid in his backyard and gives him brain damage I hope you bring up the small amount of tourney data you had back in 2014.
Holes should not go between those fields and those houses, it's just dumb. If you can't see that you shouldn't be designing courses. When there is person after person saying the exact same thing that should signal something to you.
The non disc public doesn't know how bad people are at disc golf.
Most disc golfers don't know how bad we are at disc golf. And I resemble that remark. But at least I don't throw hard enough to hurt anyone.
Merry Christmas amigos! I've been hella busy so I had to step away from the drama bomb I left. I want to thank Three Putt, Plankeye, coupe, Tenacious EJ, Sloppy, Bravethrower, New, DSmith et al for some polite, rational discourse in my absence. I'll be back eventually to elaborate my positions in awhile. Until then,
Happy Holidays.
DangeRuss
Eagle Member
I went down to Burlington in the Spring and ended up playing Springwood a couple of times. Instead of focusing on my shots being decent, I spent more time trying NOT to throw into soccer fields, backyards, parking lots, and playgrounds. I ended up hitting a car and skipping 4 or 5 holes around the baseball fields because there were so many little kids around. If the park was empty, it would have been a different story but it seems like the park is packed every day.
Just my 2 cents on the course.
P.S. I threw one near the stream on hole 8 and nearly gave up on life after being attacked by your NC's crazy crazy prickers.
Just my 2 cents on the course.
P.S. I threw one near the stream on hole 8 and nearly gave up on life after being attacked by your NC's crazy crazy prickers.
OTC, I feel it all needs to be heard, both for the value you first stated and for a glimpse into the mind
And I've played much worse, but that's no excuse for risky hole design somewhere else.
Not to mention that most Dgers find rounds alongside playing fields, playgrounds and parking lots to be aesthetically unpleasant, even when they have the park to themselves.
