Trying to get my backhand form to 400ft and beyond

[Brychanus]

Does fully extending the knee lead to more injury chances? I never really paid any attention to golf, but I thought Tiger has had knee problems. Was it from extending the knee fully?

Understanding Knee Hyperextension

Knee hyperextension involves the joint bending beyond its normal range, causing potential ligament damage and instability.

www.sports-health.com

Sidewinder cueing me into Tiger's issues made me study this a little too obsessively. Keep in mind that snaps and hyperextensions come in different degrees, and they can feel fine until the microinjuries pile up. I'm still curious if Barela and Gibson's form will eventually catch up with them due to their knee snaps/hyperextensions. We've heard Gibson complain about his back sometimes.

Had a couple more tidbits for you on backswing, "wide rail", and space. Focus on what Sidewinder is telling you to work on. I do think the context can be important for some headcases to understand, so I'll give it a shot. Just don't let it distract you from working on one thing at a time, which is the only way to really improve in the long run.

Notice when Wiggins modifies his swing for a ~230' uphill upshot (left) he shortens the backswing (torso isn't turning back as far) but his upper arm to chest angle is preserved relative to his full distance drive getting coiled all the way back (right). His movement down the tee isn't identical due to camera angle, but it is similar. This is consistent with the draws/distance lines example SW mentioned. The net effect is that the upshot appears more out-in-out (like a ">") on camera, but it is basically the same mechanics as his full rip in terms of the motion itself, just shortened/more compact. It's part of why he doesn't have to backswing very far to throw 230' uphill with a putter:


Mcbeth is sometimes brought up when people talk about "wide rail." But it's a similar/the same posture-modifying trick as Wiggins. When he spools up more distance he also allows the arm to trail behind his body as he moves past the disc. Notice his throwing shoulder and arm-to-chest angle is keeping good leverage on the disc throughout.



When I or SW talk about space to swing, I think we both are usually talking about that in the context of the rest of the posture. McBeth's an agile guy deep into very athletic posture, which my wireframe emphasizes above. In the image below, his posture and X-step are related to how he or Paige Pierce create more space in transition. The arrow from the disc to upper body is foreshadowing how much it will redirect out from their body into the release. Tattar and Robinson use a Side Shuffle Hop which you can clearly use effectively, but that form minimally (1) leaves less space to swing, which means less time to accumulate acceleration into the release, and (2) less good torque force against the ground since the shuffle hop doesn't get as significant a coil into the rear side and against the ground in the backswing. You haven't found your equivalent posture to PP or McBeth yet, which is making it harder for the other mechanics to gel. In fact, McBeth's limbs are so long you can see that he gets into that absurd depth into his athletic stance (if you still don't see it, look how far his butt is from his disc) because he can counterbalance his limbs way out from his body as he moves. Pierce is doing the "same" thing, just not with those astounding McBeth levers. I now also believe it really does take excellent athleticism to move like McBeth in that kind of depth in any case.




Finally, look at how all four pros on the right have a diagonal shift leaving the disc behind them. Their disc is "behind" them in the Lindahl-esque sense. None of them are rounding because they don't let the arm/shoulder collapse and they leverage the disc back out into the release. That's why Sidewinder's Inside Swing drill works, and you can learn to bring it into athletic posture off of the wall:



I don't think it's a coincidence that most of the top throwers have this relatively straight arm pulled taut behind them on distance drives (and often upshots), and can personally attest that it has always provided a basis for more easy distance for me regardless of whatever else is going on. FWIW, I found the pendulum/Wiggins-like straighter arm backswing easier to learn than learning all of other details at the same time, and definitely easier in standstills at first to reduce the degrees of freedom. My arm/shoulder also feels much better the day after working on drives. Spending time swinging and now throwing heavy levers has helped a lot with whole body posture and flow of momentum too. You need to feel momentum and objects interacting to help your body get certain types of feedback. It cannot all be solved in your head.

 

[Dundee]

Yes, increases injury chances and yes Tiger has had many knee and spine injuries.

I think your lack of balance is from lack of proper tilt and dynamic stack/alignment/posture. (Ride the Bull in Turbo Encabulator)

How I talk about lefty submarine pitch in Turbo Encabulator might remind you of what Malaska is talking about. I wouldn't worry much about pushing the hip or hip speed, you need to slow your hips down and feel the connection with the arm. You have too much slack between your hips and arm(hugging yourself).

Leverage & Centrifugal Force are Sideways

Maximum Leverage and Centrifugal Force occurs approximately 90 degrees from target line with the arm extended wide out over your front foot to the side of the tee like a hockey stick hitting a puck to the goal or arm pulled out taut like ball on string releasing to target, and the rear arm/leg...

www.dgcoursereview.com

I did the Ride the Bull and Wall Hershyzer drill that was in the thread you linked.



I have such a hard time relating this stuff to throwing which is probably starting to hurt me at this point. Like in the wall hit drill, I didn't realize I should be pushing off with my back foot toes. I actually thought that was a bad thing to do. In the wall hit, am I supposed to feel like my hand wants to push me away from the wall? And I'm supposed to keep myself from turning back? What am I doing wrong in the other drills?

 

[Brychanus]

I did the Ride the Bull and Wall Hershyzer drill that was in the thread you linked.



I have such a hard time relating this stuff to throwing which is probably starting to hurt me at this point. Like in the wall hit drill, I didn't realize I should be pushing off with my back foot toes. I actually thought that was a bad thing to do. In the wall hit, am I supposed to feel like my hand wants to push me away from the wall? And I'm supposed to keep myself from turning back? What am I doing wrong in the other drills?

For Hershyzer:

Good: you are allowing your backswing to coil up as your mass shifts forward.

However:



1. When you settled into the stance, you made more of a squat motion getting your knees pretzeled/splayed outwards. Hinge back at the hips more first. When you settle onto the leg notice that your leading knee is leaning forward/externally rotating rather than being internally rotating/knee pointing back like SW.

2. Your head is cut off in this angle, but notice how your spine angle is opposite SW's. His entire posture has his rear hip and rear shoulder farther away from the camera, allowing him to get his ass more toward the target. He feels like he has much more of his weight supported by his rear glute and rear hamstring in the setup than you do. He also feels like he has much more power moving off the rear hip because it's leveraged to shift him very laterally toward the target while he's still closed/getting turned even farther back in the backswing.The hip hinge (point 1) will help this. Your shoulders and pelvis are already squared up toward the camera/too parallel to it. You need to be more closed off overall. That's why these guys look more like this and Sidewinder's Hershyzer in transition:




Rear view of drill. Look how much work he's getting for free just by letting his posture start more closed off to target with his ass leading:



3. I found it way easier to learn this by letting the arm relax a little more than yours/more like Sidewinder's. It looks like you're trying to force everything to be very boxy and squared up (related to point 2 above). You do want posture integrity, but you don't want to force the body to build everything around right (90 degree) angles. Get loose and learn to shift and drop with the mAss lead is the goal of Hershyzer.

You can (should) throw directly out of the Hershyzer drill once you are shifting better. Like the Door Frame Drill, it's the basic template for a standstill backhand, and it is the same thing as what should happen once your drive/rear leg inherits your weight in the X-step. Even after you fix this stuff, 2-3 weeks of doing it/making it larger and more aggressive. Finally, you need to throw to connect it to the throw. You cannot mentalize your way through it. That's why pitching instructors drill kids with it until they get it right, then they let them "freefall" into the plant and throw.

Ride the bull -
Good: you are shifting back and forth letting the feet roll with your mass shifting.

similar, you need a little more hip hinge/depth in the stance before you start moving. I think you also need more counterrotation moving each way in the upper body - same thing that you were doing well in Hershyzer. It's just much more subtle in Ride the Bull until you shift to plant. I recommend you do the drill the way it's intended with a stick at first before you worry about the arm swing.

2-3 weeks - once you're getting it right.

Deeper hip hinge is why Mcbeth looks so deeply "seated" in his posture. Bend at hips first, not knees. Yours won't be as extreme looking but needs to be closer to this.

 

[Dundee]

For Hershyzer:

Good: you are allowing your backswing to coil up as your mass shifts forward.

However:

View attachment 313149

1. When you settled into the stance, you made more of a squat motion getting your knees pretzeled/splayed outwards. Hinge back at the hips more first. When you settle onto the leg notice that your leading knee is leaning forward/externally rotating rather than being internally rotating/knee pointing back like SW.

2. Your head is cut off in this angle, but notice how your spine angle is opposite SW's. His entire posture has his rear hip and rear shoulder farther away from the camera, allowing him to get his ass more toward the target. He feels like he has much more of his weight supported by his rear glute and rear hamstring in the setup than you do. He also feels like he has much more power moving off the rear hip because it's leveraged to shift him very laterally toward the target while he's still closed/getting turned even farther back in the backswing.The hip hinge (point 1) will help this. Your shoulders and pelvis are already squared up toward the camera/too parallel to it. You need to be more closed off overall. That's why these guys look more like this and Sidewinder's Hershyzer in transition:
View attachment 313150

View attachment 313152

Rear view of drill. Look how much work he's getting for free just by letting his posture start more closed off to target with his ass leading:

View attachment 313151

3. I found it way easier to learn this by letting the arm relax a little more than yours/more like Sidewinder's. It looks like you're trying to force everything to be very boxy and squared up (related to point 2 above). You do want posture integrity, but you don't want to force the body to build everything around right (90 degree) angles. Get loose and learn to shift and drop with the mAss lead is the goal of Hershyzer.

You can (should) throw directly out of the Hershyzer drill once you are shifting better. Like the Door Frame Drill, it's the basic template for a standstill backhand, and it is the same thing as what should happen once your drive/rear leg inherits your weight in the X-step. Even after you fix this stuff, 2-3 weeks of doing it/making it larger and more aggressive. Finally, you need to throw to connect it to the throw. You cannot mentalize your way through it. That's why pitching instructors drill kids with it until they get it right, then they let them "freefall" into the plant and throw.

Ride the bull -
Good: you are shifting back and forth letting the feet roll with your mass shifting.

similar, you need a little more hip hinge/depth in the stance before you start moving. I think you also need more counterrotation moving each way in the upper body - same thing that you were doing well in Hershyzer. It's just much more subtle in Ride the Bull until you shift to plant. I recommend you do the drill the way it's intended with a stick at first before you worry about the arm swing.

2-3 weeks - once you're getting it right.

Deeper hip hinge is why Mcbeth looks so deeply "seated" in his posture. Bend at hips first, not knees. Yours won't be as extreme looking but needs to be closer to this.
View attachment 313154

I'm out of town for work, so I'll wait til I get home on the weekend to try Ride the Bull with a broomstick. Here is me trying to match your drawing in the wall hershyzer drill.



This may be the closest I've felt to "falling" into the throw. I should be rotating my pelvis towards the target while keeping my chest squared up to the camera correct? At first I started doing this, my upper body ended up being more closed off. SW22 upper body doesn't look closed in that image to me.

My balance in this position was also not that great. It feels like I have an insane amount of weight of my heel compared to normal in this position.

Also am I hinging at the hips more in this? I have learned that I have very poor hip flexibility/mobility while doing working on this. Almost feels like my upper and lower body are fused together.

 

[sidewinder22]

1. Setup looks ok in first frame, but you should bend the rear knee in hershyzer drill setup like instructed in Hershyzer part 1. (Standstill setup is different).

2. You lean/tip back instead of turning back centered (knee bend should help with this). Note how your head goes back behind your feet and your shoulders steeply angled upward instead of downward in pendulum. Note how I turned back centered with head over rear foot and shoulders swing back in slight pendulum. Your head would be hitting the wall in Hershyzer Drill part 2.

 

[Dundee]

1. Setup looks ok in first frame, but you should bend the rear knee in hershyzer drill setup like instructed in Hershyzer part 1. (Standstill setup is different).

2. You lean/tip back instead of turning back centered (knee bend should help with this). Note how your head goes back behind your feet and your shoulders steeply angled upward instead of downward in pendulum. Note how I turned back centered with head over rear foot and shoulders swing back in slight pendulum. Your head would be hitting the wall in Hershyzer Drill part 2.

View attachment 313169

How does this look? Are my shoulders tilted too much towards the target?



Once my setup in this drill is correct, what is the next step?

 

[sidewinder22]

Yes, your shoulder/head/spine/rear hip are tipping over top, looks like your rear knee is extended instead of flexed.
You need to change your tilt(Ride the Bull) moving back and forth to remain in dynamic balance to either leg you move to/from.
You should feel in the drill that you can drive/accelerate your butt cheek/side horizontally into the wall hard from your rear foot. Don't push upward from rear foot, but push horizontally - push the boat off the dock - skateboard - swivel chair drill.

 

[Dundee]

Yes, your shoulder/head/spine/rear hip are tipping over top, looks like your rear knee is extended instead of flexed.
You need to change your tilt(Ride the Bull) moving back and forth to remain in dynamic balance to either leg you move to/from.
You should feel in the drill that you can drive/accelerate your butt cheek/side horizontally into the wall hard from your rear foot. Don't push upward from rear foot, but push horizontally - push the boat off the dock - skateboard - swivel chair drill.
View attachment 313235

So was the setup correct?

 

[Dundee]

I ask if the setup was correct because I'm worried about progressing to the next part. That setup is not something I'm used to feeling, so I want to make sure it's right first

 

[Dundee]

Hey guys, I'm back to backhand practice after 75 days of 105 degree heat killing any desire to play disc golf. Video link below.



I was trying to work on where I left off. I think my butt was targetward on these throws. How is in my posture? I felt like my rear leg's hamstring was feeling my body weight in the set up position. I can see that I'm still standing up in the throw. I just cannot get my front leg to stay bent. Is there something upstream that is causing this issue?

Another thing, I feel weak trying to push off my right foot. Is that just because my left foot is more used to making this push off movement compared to my right? Should I even be trying to put a bunch of force into it?

 

[sidewinder22]

Note how your rear foot spins out while striding. You are setting up too targetward with it, so it spins backward to about the angle where it should be setup. Your front foot is also crossed back over too far west instead of just stepping straight back south out of the way of the other foot - so feet should be on two separate rails, not same rail. Your front foot is also stepping very diagonal east, instead of straight or even striding more inside-out, or out-in-out.

You are setting up in anterior pelvic tilt/spine extension. How would you shovel snow/dirt? You need to "stay down" during the shovel(throw) part and then stand up into the followthru/finish.

 

[Dundee]

Note how your rear foot spins out while striding. You are setting up too targetward with it, so it spins backward to about the angle where it should be setup. Your front foot is also crossed back over too far west instead of just stepping straight back south out of the way of the other foot - so feet should be on two separate rails, not same rail. Your front foot is also stepping very diagonal east, instead of straight or even striding more inside-out, or out-in-out.

You are setting up in anterior pelvic tilt/spine extension. How would you shovel snow/dirt? You need to "stay down" during the shovel(throw) part and then stand up into the followthru/finish.

I'm going to focus on the set up part mostly. I think I may have a natural anterior pelvic tilt problem. That would be how I naturally stand in everyday life. When I try to stick my butt out towards the target, it seems to get worse.

To be honest, I never thought about how I was shoveling dirt when I've been doing it. I guess I do not know the correct way to shovel dirt. How do I practice staying down? Just trying to over-exaggerate it while throwing?

 

[sidewinder22]

Don't try to stick your butt out, that is how to create anterior pelvic tilt. Tuck it in - bring your belt buckle toward your navel. I don't think Hershyzer drill is ready for you yet, so...

How would you chop down a tree?

 

[Dundee]

Don't try to stick your butt out, that is how to create anterior pelvic tilt. Tuck it in - bring your belt buckle toward your navel. I don't think Hershyzer drill is ready for you yet, so...

How would you chop down a tree?

I interpreted leading the throw with my butt as needing to stick my butt out.

I went out and threw while trying to keep my belt line more horizontal. I have to actively recruit my abdominal muscles to do this. Which I assume means I have a general anterior pelvic tilt problem.

Since I misunderstood what leading the throw with my butt meant, I wonder if I am misunderstanding other things. In your Slash Thru video, you talk about using your butt to get your body out of the way. I'm not really sure I understand how that's happening. Are you actively pushing your front foot into the ground to accomplish this? Are you pushing hard laterally off your rear foot so that you can shift your weight towards the target?

Also in Slash Thru, you talk about your elbow coming through. Are you consciously trying to bring your elbow forward?

Having a real hard time understanding what's happening in Slash Thru. I won't even bother uploading my fieldwork from today. I tried to keep my front leg bent into the plant. Wasn't actually doing it after I watched the video back.

 

[sidewinder22]

Stand on one leg and swivel/swing back and forth.


Not sure what you mean by bring elbow forward. I mainly just try to keep the elbow forward relative to body and just bend the elbow to swing the lower arm/disc. My body moves to bring the elbow forward relative to target.

 

[Dundee]

Stand on one leg and swivel/swing back and forth.


Not sure what you mean by bring elbow forward. I mainly just try to keep the elbow forward relative to body and just bend the elbow to swing the lower arm/disc. My body moves to bring the elbow forward relative to target.

It looks like the logger is using his rear leg a lot. Is he sitting down while swinging the axe? Because it doesn't look like it to me. I'm missing the disc golf correlation on this one

I've been trying different things for the last few days. None of it feels right. One clip is me trying to exaggerate the sitting down motion. Is that how you sit down in the throw? It feels incredibly weak and unathletic, so I figure not

 

[sidewinder22]

You need to stand/stack up on your front hip to pivot on it effortlessy. Your front hip is collapsed out of posture.

 

[Dundee]

I've been trying to stay down in the throw. I don't know why but I just cannot do it. I guess I'm not exactly sure what "staying down" should feel like. I'm not trying to "stand up" in my throws. It just happens. It doesn't feel like I'm standing up either. Is there some kind of feeling I could try to replicate? Is there any other kind of action that you do this in, besides shoveling?

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[Dundee]

I have not been able to figure this out. I went back to the door frame drill. Around 0:55 in the part 2 video, you talk about sitting down and the weight going into your front heel. I cannot get my body to do this. I feel like my rear leg is very flexed and cannot feel anything on my front leg. What's causing this?

I have begun to wonder if my issues with putting weight on my lead leg is related to a mental block. I broke my ankle around 10 years ago, and I wonder if I'm subconsciously scared to put all my weight onto it. Either way, none of that matters. I just cannot get myself to put my weight on the lead foot