What turn the key is missing

[Brychanus]

I hear ya man

Tech Disc is a great tool. But my initial impressions of it are becoming more and more true. People using it to prove points, or chase data, but not necessarily measure data.
As I've stated, throw it a few times, gather data.
Practice other things. Come back and measure again.

See if that data changes or sticks. Otherwise you're chasing data because you're trying to influence the measurements vs take the measurements.

I think this is good general advice. To avoid "overfitting" to bad habits you need to learn how to back off the measurement and work on the mediating mechanics, sometimes for quite some time. Some people respond faster to the actual data and adjust quickly, others improve "locally" but then their overall movement gets stuck somewhere. So I'm pretty open-minded and enjoying what it can yield, I'm just remembering what most of my stats & engineering influences in my life would caution about modeling and improving any system. It's hard to predict what the "right" strategy is for any given player.

I do think we're going to go through something this like all "new" technologies. You have to go through the inflated expectations stage to learn what shakes out in the end. I just want to be on the plateau of productivity myself.

 

[Brychanus]

Also @Sheep and @OverthrowJosh, if you're not careful, you might accidentally end up being friends at this rate.

 

[Sheep]

I hear ya man



I think this is good general advice. To avoid "overfitting" to bad habits you need to learn how to back off the measurement and work on the mediating mechanics, sometimes for quite some time. Some people respond faster to the actual data and adjust quickly, others improve "locally" but then their overall movement gets stuck somewhere. So I'm pretty open-minded and enjoying what it can yield, I'm just remembering what most of my stats & engineering influences in my life would caution about modeling and improving any system. It's hard to predict what the "right" strategy is for any given player.

I do think we're going to go through something this like all "new" technologies. You have to go through the inflated expectations stage to learn what shakes out in the end. I just want to be on the plateau of productivity myself.


View attachment 336499

Yeah, that's a great point.
Some people can adapt different.

But I also look at it from the point of real vs feel. That's not a good way to describe it, but close.

The idea that something can work in a lab just fine, but when you try and do it in the real world it fails most of the time, not every time, but fails in ways you don't understand.

It's because the data was gathered and only tested in a controlled way, or the experiments were performed in a way to influence the data.

It's something we should be cautious of. I see a lot of random posts around about "my tech disc says this, but its not working that way when I play."

We get into this weird case of .. oh yeah, that's a good analogy.
The IT one.
"Works fine on my computer."

Cool, but it doesn't work on the other 5,000 computers in the network.

So you always approach the problem with a broad look at it vs a "I can do it, so it doesn't matter." That's great YOU can manage to do it without issues, but the vast majority cant.

Good lord, this is such a dead horse topic for me now.

I like the idea of tech disc. I just don't always like how people view or use it.

1 on 1 lessons, omg, it would be one of the most amazing tools.
Few throws at the start to gather data.
Lesson, Finish with some tech disc throws, and they can visibly see you made changes not only in the flight of their disc, but the data on the screen.

But that's the way I view using it as a measurement tool. Because as I mentioned previously, we can get a bunch of great data from the tech disc, but take high speed and see something that says something different.

When I shot that high speed video to try and prove some things I've been saying, all I was left with was way way way more questions than I was trying to answer when I started.

Though, the second thing I was trying to prove, that was in this video, which Paul also stated and the high speed I shot. (more than just that clip) all shows what he said.

But I also have footage of nose down throws that immediately pop nose up. they leave my hand nose down and suddenly up they go.

I still say curse anyone who doesn't struggle with nose control and can do it naturally.
your a jerk and I wish your bag to be filled with mud for eternity.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

@Sheep

I am categorically saying that you have a habitually poor response when your ideas are challenged or you view someone as lesser experienced/knowledgable than yourself.

Of course I could be wrong and of course I don't think I'm far off. It hasn't been just one interaction with you that I am pulling from. I've got many. I have not quoted them or posted them because am hoping it is unnecessary, but I'm certain I could pull up double digit interactions where your arguments have not attacked my ideas but moved towards personal attacks toward me. Again, my hope is that you look back thoughtfully on how you've conducted yourself without me airing out all your dirty laundry. I want for people to want to talk ideas with you, but the way you interact with people makes it hard for anyone who doesn't put truth above everything else feel that it is worth it to interact with you.

 

[HyzerRoc]

I am not as good a forward engineer as Sidewinder from his own model and content, but I probably do a better than average job now. I have used the same exact concepts he describes and literally added 100+' to people already throwing 500'. It works in the right hands. It is much, much, much much much much easier in person, or at least a real time call. You can do the same move, watch someone one time, and go "nope, right here." And then we didn't spend all that time trying to jam motion through a forum in stillframes. You gotta move it. IMHO teaching on this forum is literally the hardest way to teach people I can imagine (well, maybe if pictures and videos weren't allow it would be far worse). It's why I also learned from RowingBoats just saying over and over "you gotta just go do the thing to learn the thing" in one form or another.

It also challenges the student to ask good questions and to keep at the drills to squeeze whatever lessons they might have out of them. Im at a couple of months of doorframe now and just today I found out some stuff about it once again. And learning what drills even are, what they are good for and how they might apply to the real thing is a whole can of worms in itself if you didnt have a proper sports education. I played a good variety of sports and not one of them was even remotely as heavy on technique as discgolf during the regular training sessions. And the same thing is cues, for most I have no idea what they are supposed to convey when you are not supposed to do literally what is worded into the cue and what is shown on video. If we didnt have this discussion and watched the original turn the key video by Overthrow I would take the cue as literally as possible and apply pressure in exactly the way Mikey demonstrated in the video.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@Sheep

I am categorically saying that you have a habitually poor response when your ideas are challenged or you view someone as lesser experienced/knowledgable than yourself.

Of course I could be wrong and of course I don't think I'm far off. It hasn't been just one interaction with you that I am pulling from. I've got many. I have not quoted them or posted them because am hoping it is unnecessary, but I'm certain I could pull up double digit interactions where your arguments have not attacked my ideas but moved towards personal attacks toward me. Again, my hope is that you look back thoughtfully on how you've conducted yourself without me airing out all your dirty laundry. I want for people to want to talk ideas with you, but the way you interact with people makes it hard for anyone who doesn't put truth above everything else feel that it is worth it to interact with you.

Agreed. In short, I would reduce it down to: @Sheep your stated and implied objectives are significantly derailed by your default style of interaction. If you want to be more effective here, you gotta work on your forum form as you would your dg form.

 

[Brychanus]

It also challenges the student to ask good questions and to keep at the drills to squeeze whatever lessons they might have out of them. Im at a couple of months of doorframe now and just today I found out some stuff about it once again. And learning what drills even are, what they are good for and how they might apply to the real thing is a whole can of worms in itself if you didnt have a proper sports education. I played a good variety of sports and not one of them was even remotely as heavy on technique as discgolf during the regular training sessions. And the same thing is cues, for most I have no idea what they are supposed to convey when you are not supposed to do literally what is worded into the cue and what is shown on video. If we didnt have this discussion and watched the original turn the key video by Overthrow I would take the cue as literally as possible and apply pressure in exactly the way Mikey demonstrated in the video.

I view drills for the "antiathletic" like me as a way of making up for lost time for all that natural, fun motor learning other kids did running around playing sports with each other. I still learn something new almost every time I do them. They can be a scaffold to understanding.

For the athletic ones, further train & tune the system.

 

[seedlings]

The disc doesn't have to be in a straight line from letter to number. My grip might be B-3, but it rides way higher in the pad of my thumb if I want it to, which is power shots, not touch shots. Put the disc in your hand b-3. Now force the wing up higher toward the thumb, like near the 1. Instant nose-down release.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

The disc doesn't have to be in a straight line from letter to number. My grip might be B-3, but it rides way higher in the pad of my thumb if I want it to, which is power shots, not touch shots. Put the disc in your hand b-3. Now force the wing up higher toward the thumb, like near the 1. Instant nose-down release.

Interesting. I'll have to take a look at that when I get home. I updated the labels though to include more spots people were referencing. I'll go back to update the old post:
Tech disc test driven development

 

[disc-golf-neil]

If you want extremely nose down, just accidentally "grip lock" (rounding / timing issue probably) while turning the key

Wish I could've seen this one fly, lol.

 

[Sheep]

@Sheep

I am categorically saying that you have a habitually poor response when your ideas are challenged or you view someone as lesser experienced/knowledgable than yourself.

Of course I could be wrong and of course I don't think I'm far off. It hasn't been just one interaction with you that I am pulling from. I've got many. I have not quoted them or posted them because am hoping it is unnecessary, but I'm certain I could pull up double digit interactions where your arguments have not attacked my ideas but moved towards personal attacks toward me. Again, my hope is that you look back thoughtfully on how you've conducted yourself without me airing out all your dirty laundry. I want for people to want to talk ideas with you, but the way you interact with people makes it hard for anyone who doesn't put truth above everything else feel that it is worth it to interact with you.

Considering we've never actually had any major discussions about anything disc golf or any idea's of mine have been challenged by you ever... So, now you're going to brow beat me about my attitude being poor when I just responded honestly?

Is it perhaps that my response isn't what you desire from me when I defend my position? Or are you looking at what is being said to me and calling me the bad guy for how I respond despite what was leveraged at me was possibly as bad or worse?

The point of debate is to defend your position. And the point of the person questioning you is to use information and idea's to influence the person you're questioning.
So if me "defending my position" is seen as "habitually poor response" despite people constantly changing my mind in here as we have outright amazing discussions, then... I duno what to tell you.

I make mistakes and I admit them. I've been admitting them and you're trying to take a victory lap on me after trying to pull the morally superior card?

Classy man.

 

[Sheep]

Agreed. In short, I would reduce it down to: @Sheep your stated and implied objectives are significantly derailed by your default style of interaction. If you want to be more effective here, you gotta work on your forum form as you would your dg form.

This is why I struggled to interact with you is purely because of your style of interaction and what it became.

We must ALL meet 50/50 on interactions. Period.

To say otherwise is ignorant.

"Oh i dont like how that guy types, so he's the problem."

Then we get into these conversations of "oh, you not understanding you're the problem is why you have struggles"

Which is hilarious, because its one of the most hypocritical statements you can make when people struggle interacting. Because you're demanding change from people while taking the moral high ground.
"not my problem, i'm perfect."

I know I'm not perfect. I know I'm brash and aggressive. It's not like I'm sitting here knowing I don't cause friction.
Thank god I don't have this issue with people in person. I'd never be able to leave the house.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

Considering we've never actually had any major discussions about anything disc golf or any idea's of mine have been challenged by you ever... So, now you're going to brow beat me about my attitude being poor when I just responded honestly?

I'm responding to you in a reasonable and measured manner which is more than you've done for me. "Brow beat [you]" is nowhere close to what I'm doing.

Let's look at just a few of your interactions involving me:


The rest of the post is here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/s/GUzSBDSsuE

Recap: you spread misinformation about me without evidence. Not very factual of you.

Ex.2
He's you openly admitting that you don't give a f*** anymore and your intention is to talk s*** about me because I don't/wont talk to other coaches despite evidence even here to the contrary as well as the podcast that disproves your claims.


Here's the false claim that I'm a grifter who doesn't care about the results of his students that you confirm on your "[Overthrow] is just making stuff up about nose angle now" post.



Here's more phallic comments:


This is only from Reddit. I could also use the quote feature on here and pull from all your DGCR spite posts/comments against me or go into my YouTube and pull from those.

"Brow beat" you? Don't try and gaslight me bro. You're not the victim here and I don't give much credence to verbal apologies. I wait to see if someone changes. You've shown no change in action.

Your pattern is:
Talk trash about people you don't like -> if you don't get pushback keep going. If you do get pushback then you "apologize", wait and then repeat again hoping not to get pushback.

False claims you have made about me without proof:
-I have no interest in learning from and communicating with other coaches
-My coaching is a cash grab (don't try to backtrack and remove the negative connotation)
-I am an unskilled/unknowledgeable coach. Usually I would not defend myself in this manner because I think a good coach is one that is recognized by others and not by himself but I'll make an exception this time and provide proof to the contrary. Simply tell me what evidence would be sufficient for you and I'm confident I can supply it.

Now's your time to back it up. Will you defend your public accusations as truth? Or will you respond again with your choice response of "I'm not going to respond to you. It's obvious you only want to cause division."

No. I'm defending myself. Don't get mad when the person you're trying to beat on defends themself. You've got too much out there against me to defend good intentions.

 

[RowingBoats]

Maybe like…move this stuff to dms lol. Wtf even is this thread?

 

[OverthrowJosh]

Maybe like…move this stuff to dms lol. Wtf even is this thread?

I apologize for clogging up this feed. I'm sure others disagree but I feel public attacks sometimes warrant public solutions and there is some value in that.

Specifically, I think if Sheep isn't publicly reproached he will continue to clog up other feeds with similar conduct.

It is obviously not my job to police DGCR, but when Sheep is putting out overt hit pieces against me publicly I don't feel it's wrong to respond publicly.

I have said my piece. I won't respond any further in this matter and will remove myself from the conversation.

My apologies again.

 

[mcreda]

Maybe like…move this stuff to dms lol. Wtf even is this thread?

This pissing match is ridiculous. And for this crappy behavior to occur in a Disc Golf Technique forum is unbelievably bad form.

Knock it off, fellas or I'm calling an Etiquette violation.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

This pissing match is ridiculous. And for this crappy behavior to occur in a Disc Golf Technique forum is unbelievably bad form.

Knock it off, fellas or I'm calling an Etiquette violation.

Problems can only be suppressed and kept private for so long especially when there is already a big public side to it before the pressure has to be released. Newcomers who get a load of sheep frustration dumped on their head repeatedly should know it's not just them.

 

[timothy42b]

Idk if you saw my pic earlier in the thread. May not be the best but it's at least something that can add clarity.

UPDATE: updated the grip alignment diagram to include more options so these labels are outdated:
Tech disc test driven development

For example:
View attachment 336413

I like the graphic, nice job. But what confuses me is that straight line. An infinite number of planes can fit on a straight line - or if the edge of the disc is viewed as a straight line a somewhat less than infinite but still large hand angles will align.

Rear view video of pros often look (to me) like the disc plane is well below the forearm bone plane.

 

[Brychanus]

If you want extremely nose down, just accidentally "grip lock" (rounding / timing issue probably) while turning the key
View attachment 336545
Wish I could've seen this one fly, lol.

Lol.

I tended to get those if (1) the front hip was collapsing and/or (2) my balance was spinning rather than leveraging the ground like running or walking and throwing "over the top" of the brace (WTF Richarding).

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I like the graphic, nice job. But what confuses me is that straight line. An infinite number of planes can fit on a straight line - or if the edge of the disc is viewed as a straight line a somewhat less than infinite but still large hand angles will align.

Rear view video of pros often look (to me) like the disc plane is well below the forearm bone plane.

Yeah of course it's not perfectly straight but the rim does make a pretty straight enough line across the palm. No diagram like this is going to be perfect, it just needs to be useful enough to provide a common terminology to make it easier to talk about.

For example, what you mentioned about below the forearm plane, in my tech disc tests thread I just tested grip alignment F1P0 vs F1P-3, and at the end of the video I show that exact interesting difference. I wasn't trying to use a lot of wrist curl in the test throws, but if I curl my wrist into flexion, with F1P-3 the disc barley slides under my forearm in full wrist flexion whereas F1P0 it bumps into the bottom half of my forearm.