TiltedFlipCurves
Birdie Member
Pretty sure Step 1 of the "secret technique" is to throw a Roc.
In related news: I need a new Roc :|
In related news: I need a new Roc :|
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Hey I'm half way thru and I still don't know what "basing the shoulder" means. I hope I find out because it seems important.
Also that copypasta was the most poorly written authentic frontier gibberish I've ever seen. Not one comment about how excruciating that was. I can't believe I made an effort to decipher that.
You're not alone!
Basing the shoulder is the idea that your left shoulder is the handle of a whip and everything between it and the disc is the rest of the whip. You "base" the left shoulder aka stop the handle (or move it in the opposite direction) and the rest unfurls from that anchor. Similar idea to the swim move taught more frequently these days. The easiest example to see is Garrett Gurthie because his left arm moves in a very obvious opposite motion.
At least this is how I understand it.
This quote is my favorite part of Blake's secret technique and also SW's teachings. It's all an attempt with pure heart to develop a methodology that works for most. The quote is from one of Blake's responses on DGR:
"something key here is this... as i know i will always have nit-pickers who disagree because they can name half a dozen pros that do it differently... if it was that easy to do using their form, throwing far would be easy if you sunk your time into mimicking said pros. right now this is a throw that emphasizes the little things that are of great importance in hope that they will be easier to develop. whether or not they stay in an idealized form upon final execution is less important than developing the timing to making those little things happen in a throw where they previously were not."
For sure. When I was first starting out, I remember staying up many nights reading deep into the tomes of the DGR forum posts lol.
I see exactly what Blake was trying to do. SW22 took it to another level. Both of them just want people to grok something core to the swing as the primary mission in most of what they say/do. SW22 has a very remarkable ability to take things way further as well, but I really do think Blake was onto something trying to distill some of this.
Some of the discussion here lately seems to be going in way the opposite direction, where people are trying to use words to describe things that...really probably won't help others much. Similar to using words to describe the actual mechanics of walking. If you haven't 'felt' how to walk, those words aren't going to be much use learning the skill.
Im starting to think that in-person lessons by someone good at providing them would be hands down the best way to learn the basics of a disc golf swing. Not a very revelatory observation, but even I have had luck getting things to click with people, and I am no SW22 lol.
I feel that modern disc golf teaching has moved away from what Blake was teaching on the old DGR forums. He emphasized greatly on the wrist and arm motions that would make up 70% of the power behind a disc golf throw. These days most teachers focus on the whole body and positions which allows for effortless 300-350ft power. Unfortunately without hours of going through those old threads and tons of field work, body positions can only take you so far. I haven't been fortunate enough to get there yet, but I feel like I'm getting close. I get those throws every so often that fly much further without anymore effort. And I feel the difference. It's just a matter of timing that wrist and upper arm.
This is in no way disparaging modern disc golf teaching. They have found a way to give everyone enough distance to be competitive and have fun. But Blake called his teaching the graduate level of form. And rightly so. Since getting that snap will allow you to throw easily to the mid 400s and farther.
I feel that modern disc golf teaching has moved away from what Blake was teaching on the old DGR forums. He emphasized greatly on the wrist and arm motions that would make up 70% of the power behind a disc golf throw. These days most teachers focus on the whole body and positions which allows for effortless 300-350ft power. Unfortunately without hours of going through those old threads and tons of field work, body positions can only take you so far. I haven't been fortunate enough to get there yet, but I feel like I'm getting close. I get those throws every so often that fly much further without anymore effort. And I feel the difference. It's just a matter of timing that wrist and upper arm.
This is in no way disparaging modern disc golf teaching. They have found a way to give everyone enough distance to be competitive and have fun. But Blake called his teaching the graduate level of form. And rightly so. Since getting that snap will allow you to throw easily to the mid 400s and farther.
This is about where I am at also.
I really do understand why people want to nerd out on this stuff lol, I'm in no way innocent of it. I just now understand that the actual revelations that caused me to have a decent swing were very simple, and focusing on extreme details before you understand the main goal of the swing is a rabbit hole that people get lost in.
I can never be sure because I can't delete my own progress, but I believe that a TON of the body mechanics to add power to a decent snap/hit are very intuitive. Once you understand where you are trying to channel the most power, you already know how to build on that, or I did to a large degree.
I am not at all saying that the insanely verbose and detailed attempts to nail down the minutia are useless, but the order that a newer player should attempt to learn the swing, imo, would start by understanding the hit (but with better drills than the beto drill).
[snip]…the order that a newer player should attempt to learn the swing, imo, would start by understanding the hit (but with better drills than the beto drill).
I agree that it's much easier to show many things in person.
I obviously love thinking about the mechanics and minutiae, but coaching it in many contexts should probably be completely different. The balance of what is natural and what needs specific intervention is different for everyone (not just talking about my own experience).
I've noticed in person when helping brand new players that starting with the ideas of the hit, that it's a swing like other sports, and that the swing is not straight or flat seems to click quickly. Then you can get right to swinging and see what's working or not.
I met a new player Sunday and he was already understanding how to swing with his shoulder, load the bow, and lead with his weight by hole 9. Being able to see a person in 3D, show them the motion, and then physically put hands on them to help them know how to move their body is huge.
On the idea of graduate-level teachings, the Blake T & Beto teachings I think are getting it right in terms of late arm leverage. I am still learning about it when I return to one leg throws. If there is something that Blake T in particular has said that you think is not covered in this thread I'd ask it to please be bumped here.
The only thing I would want to add to keep in mind for new players to that idea of the secret technique is that using the center of gravity & leading with the weight using the leg and ground are prerequisites. Curious if anyone disagrees with that. A lot of people & especially those without sports backgrounds really seem to struggle with that and just strong arm the disc until they focus on it specifically.
@RowingBoats and for anyone else: Also on coaching, curious to hear what you think is most natural and what you'd say to yourself looking back.
I'll put some excerpts I've found in my DGR trawling. They have cast a new perspective on how I view the disc golf throw and where we should start. Unfortunately, it seems that a tiny fraction of people can actually learn it. I've noticed mentions of things that I never see on my throws (aka I'm not snapping the disc yet): Heavy disc feel, palm ejection feeling, a different sound of the disc as it leaves and displaces air, discs flying differently because of increased spin. Sorry for the big data dump, but I think there's some things out there that the majority of players just aren't seeing. It's the separation between AM distance and Pro Distance. And it's not as simple as getting your lower body in the correct positions and weight-shifting
I'll put some excerpts I've found in my DGR trawling.
Do you have a favorite new drill for the hit? Hit isn't talked about as much as weight shift, hips, nose angle, etc
No, I can't really conceive of one that you can just put into words either. Blake wrote a TON of words about feeling snap, and I don't know how much reading all of it helped me in the end either lol!
One of the phrases here that did end up getting me to understand was SW22 saying something like 'it feels like a jab'. That made no sense when I first read it, but exploring what he meant by this was one of the things that made me get it.
I also think there are two different things being discussed here with regards to how people should teach/learn, perfection and basic competence. I do not at all disagree with the efficacy of slow-mo form breakdowns for perfecting a swing. I do not think they are the most efficient way to bring someone from 150' sky hyzer to 350' leopard turnover. Someone who begins to grasp snapping/hitting the disc can make that jump almost instantaneously, and to me that is what Blake wanted to say and assist with.
I'm sure my own form could get roasted pretty hard by people good at these frame by frames, but I can toss low 400's from a standstill without using tremendous athletic effort, and never feeling a twinge of injury, so Im pretty happy here right now.
Took me about a year to get around there distance wise, and if I could go back and teach myself, I would solidify that 'feels like a jab' concept as a priority, and not go down too many detailed rabbit holes before that point. There was just a very rapid evolution in my swing once I started channeling my efforts into a hard snap. This change also was a massive relief because prior to it I had 'swing-thoughts' that make me cringe so hard now, and it was all so much more simple lol.
Then again I could be wrong about how I learned, and what actually worked lol. I could be underestimating the benefit of ingesting so many words and videos.
Do you think it is possible Beto and you slogged yourselves into effective one leg throw mechanics getting late acceleration burst/snap by feeling it out?
There are people out there who do get that late part of the chain and acceleration burst and throw far without striding at all. Many of them have trouble of some kind with weight shift mechanics.
Regardless of how much of it is hindsight, I agree that recently there's been much less talk about that.
On feel, my longest one leggers with snap do feel a lot like a jab or backfist. Also swinging a sword or a fighting baton. Those are all cases where there isn't an object or the object is fairly light. The easy quick late acceleration is where the magic happens in those actions too and that's how I learned them.
I keep going back to one leg to work on it because all that other action is spoiled without that late kinetic burst.
Do you consciously/unconsciously grip the disc super hard at the jab/hit/backfist (as Beato describes)? If so, is it really a last moment gripping hard, or a last moment wrist-pop-forward? Both?
seedlings; said:Do you consciously/unconsciously grip the disc super hard at the jab/hit/backfist (as Beato describes)? If so, is it really a last moment gripping hard, or a last moment wrist-pop-forward? Both?