[Discraft] 10 Year Anniversary Buzzz

[JC17393]

You realize that the patent number Discraft refers to isn't their patent number, but the one held by Innova for the bevel-edge disc. And when that patent ran out after 20 years (~2003), the disc companies that manufactured bevel-edge discs (even if they are their own creations) no longer had to pay royalty and acknowledge the original patent.

Just look at any older disc with a patent number on it. Innova's discs simply said "Patent No. 4568297" while Discraft's discs said "Licensed under US Patent 4568297".

The Wasp mold has the patent number because it came out first and they haven't changed the mold. The Buzzz mold (the real one, not the original first run "wasp-tooled" one) was made after the patent expired and wasn't legally required to have the patent # info on it.

Edit to add: The expiration of that patent is a big reason why there are so many more disc manufacturers now than there were 10 years ago. Back in the day, Discraft, Lightning, and Gateway all had to pay patent royalties to Innova just to produce golf discs. The patent expired, and suddenly we have Whamo creating discs again (an ill-fated line). Aerobie created the Epic. Ching broke away from Innova to create their own line of discs. Discwing and Lat64 emerged in Europe. And so on. All in large part because the patent expired.

 

[ZAMson]

Guys.

The beveled-edge patent.

 

[Swisher Streets]

I think they mean they had to give the buzzz its own patent so no one could steal it. bc if it had the same patent as wasps it wouldn't be covered because its different?

That makes more sense to me.

 

[Swisher Streets]

You realize that the patent number Discraft refers to isn't their patent number, but the one held by Innova for the bevel-edge disc. And when that patent ran out after 20 years (~2003), the disc companies that manufactured bevel-edge discs (even if they are their own creations) no longer had to pay royalty and acknowledge the original patent.

Just look at any older disc with a patent number on it. Innova's discs simply said "Patent No. 4568297" while Discraft's discs said "Licensed under US Patent 4568297".

The Wasp mold has the patent number because it came out first and they haven't changed the mold. The Buzzz mold (the real one, not the original first run "wasp-tooled" one) was made after the patent expired and wasn't legally required to have the patent # info on it.

Edit to add: The expiration of that patent is a big reason why there are so many more disc manufacturers now than there were 10 years ago. Back in the day, Discraft, Lightning, and Gateway all had to pay patent royalties to Innova just to produce golf discs. The patent expired, and suddenly we have Whamo creating discs again (an ill-fated line). Aerobie created the Epic. Ching broke away from Innova to create their own line of discs. Discwing and Lat64 emerged in Europe. And so on. All in large part because the patent expired.

Solid post thanks for the knowledge.

 

[BirdmanCR]

Thanks for the info! The only thing I don't understand is DGA has been around longer than innova making and selling discs. How do they not have the patent?

 

[smyith]

I totally buy it. A bunch of their molds now have the mangled remains of the patent number engraving -- this makes more sense than anything else they could've put out for why the Wasp tooling is different. And if they ARE misrepresenting it, they're missing a cool marketing opportunity and going straight for the super boring stuff... patent law (sorry jenb).

well, if the patent number spot is scratched out I will have nothing to say. (i have several XLs like this). However, from this explanation it sounds more like they "re-did" those parts of the molds to look prettier. From my limited knowledge of molding process that would require a new mold to be made or filling in the old mold and re doing the tooling. the latter would not only be more costly but also have molding complications.
"The original Wasp tooling -- that is the top and bottom parts -- remain the same as the first run."
Clearly it is not since the tooling is different in the pictures Discraft presented. They are claiming its different but the same.....come on guys?

 

[JC17393]

Thanks for the info! The only thing I don't understand is DGA has been around longer than innova making and selling discs. How do they not have the patent?

Because while they may have existed longer, they haven't been making discs longer than Innova. They were primarily a target manufacturing company back then. Dave Dunipace and the guys at Innova produced the first beveled-edge (wing-rim) disc designed for disc golf in 1983. Prior to that, all discs used for disc golf had the traditional "frisbee" like configuration with the rounded rim.

Obviously, that beveled edge revolutionized the game, and other companies like Discraft followed suit. But they all had to pay the royalties to Innova. Big reason they've always been the biggest company in the sport.

 

[BirdmanCR]

Gotcha.

 

[shawny0123]

Discraft just put a great explanation of all these "this isn't the same as the original" on their facebook page that explains why it actually is the same as the wasp tooled.

 

[Meulen]

well, if the patent number spot is scratched out I will have nothing to say. (i have several XLs like this). However, from this explanation it sounds more like they "re-did" those parts of the molds to look prettier. From my limited knowledge of molding process that would require a new mold to be made or filling in the old mold and re doing the tooling. the latter would not only be more costly but also have molding complications.
"The original Wasp tooling -- that is the top and bottom parts -- remain the same as the first run."
Clearly it is not since the tooling is different in the pictures Discraft presented. They are claiming its different but the same.....come on guys?

It's not as complicated as you think, and is actually common practice. You weld up the lettering, refinish the surface where the weld was performed, and then engrave the new lettering. Because of the location on the mold, it has literally zero effect on the molding process. When mold people use the term "tooling", they are usually referring to the negative space removed in the steel after machining. The lettering and logos engraved into the mold surface are just that, engravings.

 

[ZAMson]

They retooled the lettering. Retooling the lettering is far less costly than producing a new mold piece. None of the current-production Wasps have any engraving in the rim wall, and I bet we'll start seeing newly molded Wasps with the new rim engraving.

Aside from maintenance/polishing and the retooled engraving (DC Logo, WASP, Made in USA) this could easily be the original WASP mold piece. No good reason to doubt it that I've seen.

I fondly remember the entire staff of the DC regional distributor laughing our asses off at the idea of the 2nd 1st Run back what, 7 years ago? And now those are highly regarded. It's their killer disc and they do cool stuff with it. This one's pretty cool.

 

[BirdmanCR]

Discagree. I have current productions with "wasp" and patent # in the rim such as wasps and fr buzzes do.

 

[tomsdiscs]

ZAMson beat me to it.

If you have been following WASP runs in recent years you would notice what he is referring to.

I have been worried the raised lettering on the inside of Discraft discs was going away on all their molds, I like the raised lettering, and position the disc in my hand according to that orientation.

And JenB had a post a few weeks ago talking about patents and patent expirations and whether patent references needed to be removed once patents expired.

I was actually working on patent infringement issues yesterday, but on stuff related to semiconductor devices, just slightly more complex than squeezing plastic pellets into a mold.........

 

[BirdmanCR]

Take that back I have a few with "wasp" in the rim some are untooled!

 

[smyith]

It's not as complicated as you think, and is actually common practice. You weld up the lettering, refinish the surface where the weld was performed, and then engrave the new lettering. Because of the location on the mold, it has literally zero effect on the molding process. When mold people use the term "tooling", they are usually referring to the negative space removed in the steel after machining. The lettering and logos engraved into the mold surface are just that, engravings.

ahhh got you....so once again a term disc golfers are using incorrectly. Thanks for that clarification.

 

[Meulen]

ahhh got you....so once again a term disc golfers are using incorrectly. Thanks for that clarification.

It's not that it's being used incorrectly, because it is technically tooling, but the word "tooling" has multiple meanings. The words engraving and tooling get used interchangeably when referring to the lettering on a disc golf disc. When Discraft used the word "tooling", they were referring to the geometry that creates that shape of the disc.

 

[ZAMson]

Good time to point out that "current production" and "currently on shelves" can represent, for some molds and dealers, very different periods of time. The bigger the dealer, the closer their shelves are to a representation of current production for the more popular brands. This is why people are still finding 10-11 year old QMS in gas stations

 

[SteezeOG]

While I wait on my preorder from community to be shipped I picked up an orange 177+ at DD. Threw it some. Looking at their box that was laid out in the shop I saw huge variations in colors. Maybe 8 different shades of green alone? Nice if you get to hand pick your own. They are flat and soft and kind of gummy. Stability was like a normal Z Buzzz I thought but it was cold and windy I didn't play much.

Also saw 3-4 shades of purple a huge variation in the blues and yellows. Consistent appearance wise other than that though.

 

[SteezeOG]

 

[Discwrangler]

Hope some of mine are this color.

UPS is due today, I should go putt until they show up.