300’ barrier

[Jet57]

Afternoon,

Methinks my practice session today is more of just the same form/timing issues. I will say the majority of the my session today was just concentrating on planting closed, and working to shift my weight and get off my back foot. Comments/feedback/critiques are always welcome.

As an aside, I reached out to a local pro in Kansas City yesterday. He has been gracious enough to entertain the idea of a few 1on1 practice sessions. Maybe him correcting me on the spot might help something click.

https://vimeo.com/280585876

https://vimeo.com/280585828

https://vimeo.com/280585768

https://vimeo.com/280585722

 

[slowplastic]

The good news is your upper arm angle looks way better now.

So right now you are shifting "in front" still, and also going "over the top" of the brace. You basically don't have any brace to anchor yourself on, and don't have any continued leverage through the throw. That's why your throwing arm barely has to follow through, and why your torso continually leaks forward and you step through as you are throwing.

From side views your rear femur rotates in place then steps through, rather than driving forward under your rear hip which would indicate a leveraged weight shift. As well from the rear view, if you draw a line up your plant leg, all of your body rotates to the left/around/in front of the plant and there is no brace and counterweight.

The one leg drill, which SW put in post 9, will prevent you from being able to push yourself "over the top" of the brace leg. The crush the can drills on his youtube channel also illustrate and expose that problem, but I think the one leg drill is a great way to prevent yourself from yanking your torso forward.

The door frame drill and a variety of the videos...too many to list, will help with the shift from behind. Unfortunately it's such a strange concept that until it clicks all the videos may seem like they are different but really it's just different ways to try to get the same concept to make sense. More in here as well https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127477

 

[sidewinder22]

Agree with SP, you aren't getting off your rear foot before you plant, so you are trying to push too late through the swing instead of initiated ground up and done with the rear foot before the swing starts.

I wouldn't start the throw with feet together like you are doing. You could either start open stance, like I show in Crush the Can like Lizotte and plant closed. Or you could start feet slightly wider than shoulder and plant slightly wider. Or you could start really wide stance and plant into narrower stance. You should end up in about in the same stance doing any and all of those. Or you could start on One Leg and work slightly backward like One Leg Drill. Or you could start from the Hershyzer with front foot crossed behind rear foot and butt leading forward.

 

[Jet57]

You guys are awesome. Thank you for the encouragement / seeing some positives, that is a big motivator!

Hopefully you all are not getting tired of posting some of the same advice/videos/drills for me, because hearing it multiple times and being said in different ways is very helpful. I'll keep working and report back soon!

Jeremiah

 

[slowplastic]

Hopefully you all are not getting tired of posting some of the same advice/videos/drills for me, because hearing it multiple times and being said in different ways is very helpful. I'll keep working and report back soon!

That's how it goes, you can watch a video and have something click, then a few months later watch it again and a whole different part makes sense. The conceptual breakthroughs are very important, because if your head doesn't know what you are doing your body won't follow. Unless you just get lucky and feel a couple good shots and can replicate them...if that happens then keep doing it, film it, and figure out why it's better afterwards.

 

[Jet57]

Grrrrr...I don't think I've ever wanted to get something so badly! How is this for bracing? Better, worse, bout the same?

https://vimeo.com/280997742

 

[slowplastic]

Better, but kind of inbetween/halfway there.

You are now instead of going around/left/in front of the brace leg, you are kind of trying to go through it and getting jammed up. So you're more backwards and such, but you're not initially getting set up "from behind" so that you have a counterweight to pivot. Instead you are just going through the brace, and since you can't do that, you're kind of getting stuck/blocked.

I think you're kind of halfway pushing the upper body and turning into the throw a little early. Has to happen "underneath" you, shifting your lower spine/pelvis onto the plant leg and having the brace clear your hips so there is space to throw through.

 

[sidewinder22]

Agree with SP, your weight is still on the rear foot/pushing too late through the brace instead of before brace. You are crouching too much in x-step, need to get more upright on rear leg so you can squat into rear leg accelerate off foot and fall into the plant, just like a pitcher. You are rising into the plant.

 

[bananas1023]

Have you noticed an increase in distance? Accuracy? Scores?

 

[DiscFifty]

yah...looking at that form I'd be shocked if you're not well past 300ft now. If you're still at 300, then there is some other areas at play, like brute arm speed problems or perhaps not enough spin on the disc, nose up issues, etc, etc. Plus post some real speed videos of your form, easier to spot speed problems, smoothness issues, etc.

 

[Jet57]

Better, but kind of inbetween/halfway there.

You are now instead of going around/left/in front of the brace leg, you are kind of trying to go through it and getting jammed up. So you're more backwards and such, but you're not initially getting set up "from behind" so that you have a counterweight to pivot. Instead you are just going through the brace, and since you can't do that, you're kind of getting stuck/blocked.

I think you're kind of halfway pushing the upper body and turning into the throw a little early. Has to happen "underneath" you, shifting your lower spine/pelvis onto the plant leg and having the brace clear your hips so there is space to throw through.

Can you clarify "getting setup from behind" and what drill relates to that critique? Would it be the door frame drill? I've done so many drills lately, but I still find it difficult to translate it into my throw.

Agree with SP, your weight is still on the rear foot/pushing too late through the brace instead of before brace. You are crouching too much in x-step, need to get more upright on rear leg so you can squat into rear leg accelerate off foot and fall into the plant, just like a pitcher. You are rising into the plant.

At what point should all my weight be off my rear leg/foot? Would it be simultaneously as I "crush the can"?

Have you noticed an increase in distance? Accuracy? Scores?

Wow...so this may sound odd...but I've literally been trying to respond to your question for the past 15 minutes. Short answer is...I'm not sure. There are so many variables when I am playing a round, that is difficult for me to discern if I am improving or not.

In practice, I've been mostly indoors throwing in large vacant warehouse, so I haven't paid much attention accuracy or distance. I've just been filming myself and trying to correct my own form on the spot.

As dumb as this sounds, your question/s brought to light that I need to do a better job of being aware of my own progress. I've been so focused on my form that I have not taken the time to evaluate how much I have progressed.

yah...looking at that form I'd be shocked if you're not well past 300ft now. If you're still at 300, then there is some other areas at play, like brute arm speed problems or perhaps not enough spin on the disc, nose up issues, etc, etc. Plus post some real speed videos of your form, easier to spot speed problems, smoothness issues, etc.

As I mentioned, it's been quite awhile since I've measured flat ground throws with drivers, going to get some field work in tonight so I will report back. I do know that the warehouse i practice in in 250' long. Putters come up about 30'-40' short of the wall, and my mids about 10' short. Sometimes I'll slam the wall if I release late (rounding).

I'll shoot some real time video and will report back soon. As always, thank you to everyone for your help.

Jeremiah

 

[sidewinder22]

Can you clarify "getting setup from behind" and what drill relates to that critique? Would it be the door frame drill? I've done so many drills lately, but I still find it difficult to translate it into my throw.



At what point should all my weight be off my rear leg/foot? Would it be simultaneously as I "crush the can"?

Pretty much all my drills are to help setup from behind or closed. It helps to film yourself doing the drills, easy to spot issues in drills.

Best way to crush the can is with all your weight already off the rear foot, basically like in the drill I show with the rear foot already raised off the ground 6" or so(essentially planting into the One Leg Drill). There can be some variance depending on your width of stance and effectiveness - i.e. some players don't use all their weight efficiently and sometimes it depends on the shot or they are not trying to throw full power/efficiency.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuvujcEMLxs#t=3m17s



*My OG Crush the Can video has been disabled by youtube for music*

 

[Jet57]

Pretty much all my drills are to help setup from behind or closed. It helps to film yourself doing the drills, easy to spot issues in drills.

Best way to crush the can is with all your weight already off the rear foot, basically like in the drill I show with the rear foot already raised off the ground 6" or so(essentially planting into the One Leg Drill). There can be some variance depending on your width of stance and effectiveness - i.e. some players don't use all their weight efficiently and sometimes it depends on the shot or they are not trying to throw full power/efficiency.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuvujcEMLxs#t=3m17s



*My OG Crush the Can video has been disabled by youtube for music*

HA! Never even thought about filming myself doing the drills, I'll give that a shot with some of the drills that I think I am struggling with.

Finally not 100+ degrees in KC, so got some field work in last night. Couple times I was able to get my Roc well past 300', probably in the 330' range. That is about where my Teebird and Escape were landing as well.

https://vimeo.com/281434222

https://vimeo.com/281434445

 

[slowplastic]

That distance increase is great, 300' mid shots really help out your game.

You're still pushing late and over the top. Most apparent in your standstill, you can see your front heel lands and is weighted before you actually shift off your back foot. Then you can kind of see the momentum going up in a line through your back leg and spine on the same angle. The rear knee then easily spins around/to the left of the plant leg.

Basically right now your throwing axis is a line up your right/plant leg, up your right side, and to your right shoulder. Your arm is on one side of it, and the rest of your body is on the other. So your body just comes around the plant with no resistance, and there is no counterweight really to get continued leverage on the shot. Also there isn't a weight shift.

When you get that shift from behind feeling, you shift your weight directly targetwards and some mass is on both sides of your axis. But your weight will clear out of the way like the counterweight of a trebuchet, so you won't feel like you're getting jammed up.

 

[billyjacko]

When you get that shift from behind feeling, you shift your weight directly targetwards and some mass is on both sides of your axis.

To understand shift from behind, you need to understand shift from in front (what you're trying to avoid), and SC's description of a washing machine spinning out of balance is the best description of what it looks like you're doing. It's pretty easy to see when you know what you're looking for, but incredibly frustrating when you don't.

Watch how your knees swing around the outside of you as you plant. I think you're concentrating too much on loading the hips. It does you no good to load the hips if you expend all that load before you shift your weight. The purpose of loading the hips is to send more force/weight into the plant foot during the weight shift. For you, all that weight is swinging around you, and not into the plant where the energy will effortlessly travel up your body and into your arm.

Check out these stills from where your knees are when your toes touch the ground to when your weight is (mostly) on your front foot, and compare it to McBeth and Eagle. Your front knee has moved laterally about a foot, and the rear knee has hardly at all (byproduct of pushing your weight over the top rather than pivoting the weight underneath you with your rear hip). You want this to basically be the opposite with the front knee moving very little/not at all and the rear knee pivoting in (this is where the squeezed knee look comes from).

I'd suggest focusing on shifting the weight laterally like SW does in ride the bull.

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks like you are setting up pigeon toed and your rear foot spins out before you start the backswing. Setup in neutral joint alignment, make sure rear foot firm in ground before you start the backswing.

Go back and watch vids in post 5 and 13.

 

[Jet57]

That distance increase is great, 300' mid shots really help out your game.

You're still pushing late and over the top. Most apparent in your standstill, you can see your front heel lands and is weighted before you actually shift off your back foot. Then you can kind of see the momentum going up in a line through your back leg and spine on the same angle. The rear knee then easily spins around/to the left of the plant leg.

Basically right now your throwing axis is a line up your right/plant leg, up your right side, and to your right shoulder. Your arm is on one side of it, and the rest of your body is on the other. So your body just comes around the plant with no resistance, and there is no counterweight really to get continued leverage on the shot. Also there isn't a weight shift.

When you get that shift from behind feeling, you shift your weight directly targetwards and some mass is on both sides of your axis. But your weight will clear out of the way like the counterweight of a trebuchet, so you won't feel like you're getting jammed up.

Okay, so I saw this BEFORE I took my daily lunch break to throw. You said the word leverage, and although I'm sure it's been said before, this time it resonated with me. Unfortunately, it wasn't until the end of my lunch that I started to get the feeling.

To understand shift from behind, you need to understand shift from in front (what you're trying to avoid), and SC's description of a washing machine spinning out of balance is the best description of what it looks like you're doing. It's pretty easy to see when you know what you're looking for, but incredibly frustrating when you don't.

Watch how your knees swing around the outside of you as you plant. I think you're concentrating too much on loading the hips. It does you no good to load the hips if you expend all that load before you shift your weight. The purpose of loading the hips is to send more force/weight into the plant foot during the weight shift. For you, all that weight is swinging around you, and not into the plant where the energy will effortlessly travel up your body and into your arm.

Check out these stills from where your knees are when your toes touch the ground to when your weight is (mostly) on your front foot, and compare it to McBeth and Eagle. Your front knee has moved laterally about a foot, and the rear knee has hardly at all (byproduct of pushing your weight over the top rather than pivoting the weight underneath you with your rear hip). You want this to basically be the opposite with the front knee moving very little/not at all and the rear knee pivoting in (this is where the squeezed knee look comes from).

I'd suggest focusing on shifting the weight laterally like SW does in ride the bull.

So the videos I am posting I shot BEFORE reading the messages from you and Sidewinder. BUT from my untrained eye, it appears I might be on the right track in terms of shifting from behind? I know it still needs a lot of work, but this is the first time that I haven't felt as "jammed up" as SP has pointed out.

I left in my video a couple of my dry throws, mostly because I think it shows my weight shift from behind better? But I could be completely wrong on that.

I'll go back and watch ride the bull. So easy to miss all the great tips in those videos.

Looks like you are setting up pigeon toed and your rear foot spins out before you start the backswing. Setup in neutral joint alignment, make sure rear foot firm in ground before you start the backswing.

Go back and watch vids in post 5 and 13.

Will do Sidewinder! Bad habit setting up in pigeon toe; the thought was it would help me plant closed. I'll be sure to setup neutral from now on.

https://vimeo.com/281526314

https://vimeo.com/281525316

 

[slowplastic]

The standstill second video is all your old habits. Collapsed arm, trying to pre-spin, opening early.

In the X-step you can see that you reach maximum reachback/backswing before front toes are really on the ground even, and the front leg is rotating open as it is coming down. In the door frame drill you should be turning deeper and deeper as you are dropping further into the plant. It's basically impossible to get the late load/turn that pro's get without being set up from behind.

 

[sidewinder22]

Agree with SP, front foot is spinning out before you plant the heel. If you took video from behind the tee, your front hip would be too far to the right side of tee behind your front heel. You want to get more dynamically stacked upright through all your joints into the plant. Would also help if pre-swing with all your weight on the front leg like One Leg Drill, then shift back to rear foot, then backswing, and mirror forward. You are pre-swinging between your two feet instead of just the front foot.

 

[Jet57]

Well shoot...

Thanks fella. Back at it tomorrow