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Disc speeds
- Thread starter MikeyDays
- Start date
Blake_T1
* Ace Member *
Disc range is a sliding scale, but once you reach the top level power, the "useful range" of discs really start to shine through.
Some ballpark figures:
Fairway drivers 350-425'ish
Midrange 300-350'ish
Putters < 300'
Just because someone CAN throw a putter 400' doesn't mean it's the best choice for a 400' shot. If you watch most players who can throw 475'+, they will usually do something similar to said ranges but with some variance. E.g. You might see particularly big arms go 350' on their putters and mids up to 380-400', but you'll rarely see them push fairway drivers much beyond 430-440' since it takes significantly more effort to do that than a "3-wood equivalent" disc, e.g, an orc. Similarly you are more likely to see one of them throw a 400' hyzer with a wraith or destroyer on a wide open hole since it's an easier shot to execute.
The thing that tends to get lost to newer players is that there was a time when fairway drivers were distance drivers and you'd see guys pumping vipers or cyclone 2's 450' or later, x2's and teebirds 480', etc.
Ego gets in the way of a lot of it. People want to feel like they are better players than they really are and focus so much on what they know that they ignore what is out there that they don't know.
I know i'm a hack golfer that can do a few things particularly well but i also know i can turn an advanced player into a cashing pro in 2-3 years of coaching
the biggest thing that has been ignored in this thread is rim width. You can flat out lever narrower rims much harder and more consistently than wider rims. If you aren't a big snap thrower, it's damn near impossible to learn snap with wide rims. If you decelop snap timing with narrower rims, it translates over much more easily to wide rims.
How much farther distance drivers SHOULD fly on a golf line is something that gets ignored big time. A destroyer SHOULD fly 75-100'+ farther than a teebird or eagle on a reasonable golf line. If it doesn't, you really aren't gaining much from throwing the "longer" disc. E.g. If a ball golfer only hits his 1-wood 5-7 yards farther than he hits his 4-wood, there is no motivation to ever hit the lower percentage 1-wood due to the drop off in accuracy and consistency for marginal distance gains. If a distance driver only picks up 20-30' on a fairway driver, there is no reason to throw it. If it sounds like i'm anti-distance, anyone that has talked to me knows that i believe distance is king... but i believe in REAL distance increases and not technology distance gains.
Some ballpark figures:
Fairway drivers 350-425'ish
Midrange 300-350'ish
Putters < 300'
Just because someone CAN throw a putter 400' doesn't mean it's the best choice for a 400' shot. If you watch most players who can throw 475'+, they will usually do something similar to said ranges but with some variance. E.g. You might see particularly big arms go 350' on their putters and mids up to 380-400', but you'll rarely see them push fairway drivers much beyond 430-440' since it takes significantly more effort to do that than a "3-wood equivalent" disc, e.g, an orc. Similarly you are more likely to see one of them throw a 400' hyzer with a wraith or destroyer on a wide open hole since it's an easier shot to execute.
The thing that tends to get lost to newer players is that there was a time when fairway drivers were distance drivers and you'd see guys pumping vipers or cyclone 2's 450' or later, x2's and teebirds 480', etc.
Ego gets in the way of a lot of it. People want to feel like they are better players than they really are and focus so much on what they know that they ignore what is out there that they don't know.
I know i'm a hack golfer that can do a few things particularly well but i also know i can turn an advanced player into a cashing pro in 2-3 years of coaching
the biggest thing that has been ignored in this thread is rim width. You can flat out lever narrower rims much harder and more consistently than wider rims. If you aren't a big snap thrower, it's damn near impossible to learn snap with wide rims. If you decelop snap timing with narrower rims, it translates over much more easily to wide rims.
How much farther distance drivers SHOULD fly on a golf line is something that gets ignored big time. A destroyer SHOULD fly 75-100'+ farther than a teebird or eagle on a reasonable golf line. If it doesn't, you really aren't gaining much from throwing the "longer" disc. E.g. If a ball golfer only hits his 1-wood 5-7 yards farther than he hits his 4-wood, there is no motivation to ever hit the lower percentage 1-wood due to the drop off in accuracy and consistency for marginal distance gains. If a distance driver only picks up 20-30' on a fairway driver, there is no reason to throw it. If it sounds like i'm anti-distance, anyone that has talked to me knows that i believe distance is king... but i believe in REAL distance increases and not technology distance gains.
JR
* Ace Member *
Real distance increases mean that when you power down to 80-90 % and gain accuracy and consistency vs ripping all out each time your scores will jump. Pro plastic in Leopard makes the disc flip more than Star and Champ Star being more overstable than C.
Pro in Beast is great, grippy yet durable and Pro was the longest plastic before Blizzard low weighters. Weight for weight Pro might still be the distance king. Pro Beast is a great driver but too wide winged for learning snap. Beast to a 350' and over thrower is what a go to club is for a golfer. Not the longest but not losing out much at all and way more accurate and consistent than the big bombers. Because that role changes according to the skills of the golfer the Beast could correspond to many types of golf clubs. Maybe between 3 iron to 3 wood.
For learning snap grip strength is paramount. I know this from being injured for life in the throwing arm and from slo mo cameras seeing that i can't hold on to the disc long enough most of the time. Leverage is easier to gain with thin winged discs but also thin ones. That is why i have learned the most on Spikes, XDs, Wedges and most usefully on Coyotes.
Pro in Beast is great, grippy yet durable and Pro was the longest plastic before Blizzard low weighters. Weight for weight Pro might still be the distance king. Pro Beast is a great driver but too wide winged for learning snap. Beast to a 350' and over thrower is what a go to club is for a golfer. Not the longest but not losing out much at all and way more accurate and consistent than the big bombers. Because that role changes according to the skills of the golfer the Beast could correspond to many types of golf clubs. Maybe between 3 iron to 3 wood.
For learning snap grip strength is paramount. I know this from being injured for life in the throwing arm and from slo mo cameras seeing that i can't hold on to the disc long enough most of the time. Leverage is easier to gain with thin winged discs but also thin ones. That is why i have learned the most on Spikes, XDs, Wedges and most usefully on Coyotes.
Deliveryguy
Newbie
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2010
- Messages
- 10
The comment on gripping a high speed driver vs a fairway driver is so spot on with what Im going through now Blake.Im pushing my Leo(champ)350 now but struggle to get my stable Katana out to 400.I know its my grip because it feels like Im trying to hold on for dear life,like a man dangling from a ledge and the Leo feels good and powerful ripping out.
Blake_T1
* Ace Member *
The man dangling from a ledge is a great analogy, Chris. It's funny, because when I throw Rocs 350'+ it means I should be able to throw Nukes 460'+ but when I hit a field I'll hit 85% or better of my roc throws but I'm lucky if I can get a single hit in 10 tries on a Nuke.
As for talk about Eagles, remember there's both Eagle X's and Eagle L's floating around. EL's are like a faster Polaris LS or slower Beast and fly pretty much the same in both DX and Champ plastic. EX's are a different animal completely. In DX they are throwable with 325' of power. In Star they need more like 360'+ of power. In Champ they need more like 380'+ of power on em to be able to work em at all. In a perfect world, people would be able to throw 390'+ consistently before grabbing an EX in premium plastic.
As for talk about Eagles, remember there's both Eagle X's and Eagle L's floating around. EL's are like a faster Polaris LS or slower Beast and fly pretty much the same in both DX and Champ plastic. EX's are a different animal completely. In DX they are throwable with 325' of power. In Star they need more like 360'+ of power. In Champ they need more like 380'+ of power on em to be able to work em at all. In a perfect world, people would be able to throw 390'+ consistently before grabbing an EX in premium plastic.
JR
* Ace Member *
Unfortunately there are some super beefy Star Eagles that are crazy meathooks. Z Predator like. They are very short and super power hungry. Much more than what Blake wrote.
I started off playing disc golf by finding the fastest discs I could and throwing them. 2 years later, I couldn't understand why I couldn't throw a fairway/mid/putter on a line without it turning into a roller. It was a huge setback to where I am know, and my first rule whenever I take someone new out to play is to give them a buzz to start.
The problem with starting with the fast discs is you will be teaching yourself to wrist roll all your shots. The only way you can throw those discs for any distance when you start out is to put extreme amounts of angle into your starting throw. But if you disc down and focus on throwing slower discs, you will teach yourself to release them flat. Once you have learned to throw flat, it is much easier to learn how to make every disc fly the way you want it. But if you never learn to throw flat, you will never learn how to really manipulate all your discs, all you will learn is "This disc is perfect for short dog leg holes, all it does it bend really hard" "This disc is really over stable to the point I can throw it at a 30% anny and it turns for a nice 300' S-cure." or "This disc isn't overstable enough, it just turns into a roller"
The problem with starting with the fast discs is you will be teaching yourself to wrist roll all your shots. The only way you can throw those discs for any distance when you start out is to put extreme amounts of angle into your starting throw. But if you disc down and focus on throwing slower discs, you will teach yourself to release them flat. Once you have learned to throw flat, it is much easier to learn how to make every disc fly the way you want it. But if you never learn to throw flat, you will never learn how to really manipulate all your discs, all you will learn is "This disc is perfect for short dog leg holes, all it does it bend really hard" "This disc is really over stable to the point I can throw it at a 30% anny and it turns for a nice 300' S-cure." or "This disc isn't overstable enough, it just turns into a roller"
turso
Double Eagle Member
pask2155 said:
http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13582
turso
Double Eagle Member
Blake_T said:
I have the very same problem with anything wider rimmed than a PD really, not getting the hit. When my form is in shape(ie. I've been playing actively) I have no trouble reaching 430' with a PD on a straight line, but RARELY go over 460' with anything wide rimmed be it blizzard or near max weight. Is it just a grip power problem? Can it be fixed by altering grip, or possibly just doing strengthening exercises?
Or could it be that my timing's a little off all the time, and it starts showing with the widest rims in form of slippage?
Blake_T1
* Ace Member *
isobar said:
This is a common story nowadays. ThIs kind of story started in the crush/orc generation of drivers and has gotten worse since then.
Turso: it's a leverage/ergonomics thing. My max width = valk (1.9 cm) if i want to hit it with my standard grip, but honestly, my consistency takes a sharp dive after about 1.6cm. Grip mods will help to an extent, but there are some rims that just won't grip well unless you have gigantor hands.
turso
Double Eagle Member
Yeah, feared as much. I guess I "just" need to start throwing PDs to 500', back to practice field...
JR
* Ace Member *
Mikey because it is a good thing to have the same disc in various states of beatness for more versatility and the DX needs the least power i'd get a DX Eagle X. Stars have lemons in them so starting off with one would be equivalent to getting the fastest disc you can get but only shorter. So no point in risking that. If you get a Star later check out the height of the outer edge from a table and if you see variations between individual discs don't get the one that has the edge highest because that will be the beefiest.
Turso my index finger middle section is Teebird wide so to get any leverage i'd need to drop to Leopards :-( And that ain't a thin disc so the benefits are even worse. Because Viper is the next speed down and then there's little usable stuff in speed 5 i'm not served well by the industry. Kite maybe but man that is tall and the softness of the flight plate forces the thumb fairly close to the edge of the disc increasing slipping danger.
Turso my index finger middle section is Teebird wide so to get any leverage i'd need to drop to Leopards :-( And that ain't a thin disc so the benefits are even worse. Because Viper is the next speed down and then there's little usable stuff in speed 5 i'm not served well by the industry. Kite maybe but man that is tall and the softness of the flight plate forces the thumb fairly close to the edge of the disc increasing slipping danger.
HeartlessCynic
* Ace Member *
Switch to Champ and Star fairways when you start saying "I wish my fairways would stop going so far". Seriously, I was using DX fairways for a long time based on the advice on this site and they are great. Once my golfable max distance hit about 380'-400' I switched back to premium plastic fairway drivers because the lost glide put them perfectly between my distance discs and my mids. If I get a good yank on a DX Eagle X or TeeBird now I could unintentionally send it a lot farther than I need. If you insist on having a premium plastic fairway driver, you need to pick a different mold that has a lower power requirement. Premium Eagles and TBs are great discs if you have power to spare but they make terrible learning tools.
Blake_T1
* Ace Member *
MikeyDays said:
Disc golf from 1960-1995 only had dx as the option. Midgrade appeared in 1995. Premium plastic didnt come out until 2000-01.
"old school" players know how to cycle plastic to extend its lifespan. We also prefer to throw broken in plastic to new plastic since it flies farther and has less fade. It also grips better and grip = power.
My line about it is that it's a flying contest and not a durability contest, but i also rarely hit things within 200' of the teepad.
The tossup is this:
Dx eagle x hss -1, lss +3
Champ eagle x hss -0.25, lss +3.75
Star eagle x hss -0.5 +3.5
I prefer to beat eagles in until they're hss -1.25-1.5, lss 2.5 or so. With dx that takes me 2-4 weeks on a cycle and they stay that way for 3-4 months. Champ that's like 6-12 months of throwing 1 to get it there.
JR
* Ace Member *
NoLifeLeft said:
A DX Gazelle is pretty durable because it flies so slowly and is pretty durable structurally and is quite workable and starts out fairly hard fading and beats n to straight to understable fairly slowly.
