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disc weight and elevation questions...

glassila

Double Eagle Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2013
Messages
1,617
Does anyone know or better yet have actual data:
1. How much does 1 foot in elevation change affect the distance a disc travels?
2. How much does 1 gram in weight difference affect the distance a disc travels?
In both cases we are assuming no wind and identically thrown discs.
 
I do not think that we will ever get to that level of accuracy/science.

Weight has more to do with acceleration and momentum than flight. Lighter is easier to accelerate, heavier loses momentum slower.
How weight effects glide is another factor, maybe we can find the ideal sweet spot for a specific shape disc that has the most distance potential given a specific spin rate, release angle and velocity.

Elevation is another animal. Really the question here is air density which varies with elevation but also humidity and temperature.
Distance gain/loss at a given air density is not exactly linear either. Most records are set at around 2000' above sea level. Discs glide more at lower elevation, but decelerate faster. Discs are not just projectiles like balls, it's not easier to throw far at higher elevations. I would argue its actually harder. Shots like thumbers and spike hyzers are easier to throw far at higher elevation since they rely on speed as a projectile but big flex shots go further at lower elevations. There likely is a sweet spot (maybe somewhere around 2000') that has the most potential for glide/penetration.


Either way I do not think either feet of elevation or grams make a linear difference, even in a controlled environment I imagine that its more a curve where there is an ideal weight and elevation and at further extremes the difference per unit is larger than near the ideal.
 
If you're into physics, this is a really good series. Not really any definitive formulas or anything, but a lot of really good general knowledge. I'm an engineer and I had to watch it multiple times...

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL42Xm0FncwhAam-KNg-ZM3C_358etv-JS

The closest I've seen to fairly accurate adjustments are:
- Subtract 0.5 from glide
- Add 0.5 to turn
- Add 0.5 to fade

It can vary between forehand and backhand as well. I don't think forehand tends to be affected quite as much. My personal experience as a forehand dominant player (just verified this past weekend) is that my stable-to-overstable discs tend to behave pretty close to the same, inline with the guideline above. I see much more difference in my understable stuff. It suddenly becomes neutral to slightly stable. I have a used PP Amp that is my flip-up and turn disc at 1k. Up at 4k last weekend it was my go to stable fairway. Released flat it would barely turn at all and have a solid reliable fade at the end.
 
I don't believe a linear formula is possible here, because there are multiple reasons why elevation changes disc flights.

I will say...it is much more pronounced than I expected. I live in Colorado Springs, somewhere around 6,000 feet above sea level. I went to play in New Jersey at something like 300 feet above...and whoo boy.

Most of my bag was unthrowable there for me without dramatic changes in what I was trying to do. I have a Ballista Pro that is an absolute beefcake in CO, and this thing would do a full hard S-curve in NJ. Made me have an all new respect for people who can adapt to that kind of change reliably and keep their game together.
 
Whoops...by elevation change I meant when throwing uphill or downhill. :doh::doh::doh:

For instance, how much does a 10 foot elevation change (uphill or downhill) affect how far a disc travels vs the exact same throw on a perfectly level piece of land?
 
Whoops...by elevation change I meant when throwing uphill or downhill. :doh::doh::doh:

For instance, how much does a 10 foot elevation change (uphill or downhill) affect how far a disc travels vs the exact same throw on a perfectly level piece of land?
It's about 3' to 1' for uphill elevation up to about 10% grade. It increases at higher grade levels but hard to measure because lift is lost the more nose up the disc must be thrown.

Downhill, it takes less energy to throw, perhaps at the similar 3-1 ratio but the landing accuracy spread can be higher because the fade is greater than on level ground for the same distance resulting in similar scoring percentages.
 
Does anyone know or better yet have actual data:
1. How much does 1 foot in elevation change affect the distance a disc travels?
2. How much does 1 gram in weight difference affect the distance a disc travels?
In both cases we are assuming no wind and identically thrown discs.

1 gram of weight difference could have a different result in distance or not, enough where OTB Discs will give you the labeled weight, and then their own measured weight when selecting a disc. My experience is that for 5 months before losing it, I had a Plasma Wave 170g all on an x-step (slowly improving my form) good disc hitting gaps in the woods with ending fade, can go offline because a little flippy, not my best distance disc 11-speed. For the past few weeks now have a Plasma Wave 171g just in time as I transition my 11-speeds to 3-step the past month, no time with an x-step. Feels stiffer, with the extra step I can feel the acceleration, and in the direction of my release point just a tad fade. If I threw both weights side by side 3-step, I think the 170g would out distance the 171g because of the flippy feel, and maybe as much as about 15 feet on average. I feel this way because.........

The past 5 weeks going thru 4 different sets of 11-speeds at different weights to the 3-step transition Waves, Photon's, Zenith's, this week Star Mamba's, and next week Orbitals. I've seen the difference in distance by small amount of weight or a large amount of weight, and that can also be affected by the type of plastic, stiffness or flippy. The sliding scale can go both ways in weight, depending on the type of disc.

My putters thru 9-speeds are solid where I have a good feel on where I want that precise weight for best distance. But, I'll always be willing to tinker with weight.
 
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It's about 3' to 1' for uphill elevation up to about 10% grade. It increases at higher grade levels but hard to measure because lift is lost the more nose up the disc must be thrown.

Downhill, it takes less energy to throw, perhaps at the similar 3-1 ratio but the landing accuracy spread can be higher because the fade is greater than on level ground for the same distance resulting in similar scoring percentages.

So if a disc hits the ground at 300 feet on level ground, that same throw would hit at 270 feet if the ground sloped upwards 10 feet and 330 feet if there was a 10 foot drop in elevation?
That sounds about right to me.
 
1 gram of weight difference could have a different result in distance or not

1 gram will not make a measurable difference in the flight of two identically molded 170g discs. Any differences you may be seeing are due to molding or plastic type.
 
I'm gonna say this here, as I have other places.....

People who think they would notice a gram or two of weight difference, either in flight or feel, are flat out delusional.

A few grams makes zero appreciable distance. I'm willing to bet that even a few more than a few wouldn't be noticed.

I could give anyone a stack of max weight "disc x" and a stack of the same discs 5g lighter, and it'd be a crapshoot if you had to guess which ones were what.
 
So if a disc hits the ground at 300 feet on level ground, that same throw would hit at 270 feet if the ground sloped upwards 10 feet and 330 feet if there was a 10 foot drop in elevation?
That sounds about right to me.

The 3-1 rule is probably as good as anything out there, which isn't saying much. One of the many problems regarding slope is highlighted by the way you asked your question. If you throw "the same throw" three times with level ground, downslope and upslope (where each slope falls or rises 10 feet vertically per 300 feet of distance), then you probably won't get the 3-1 outcome.

If you are throwing 300 feet over level ground, and lets say its a laser that just glides along at the height that it was released until it fades out, then on the upslope, it will hit the upwardly sloping ground before it travels 200 feet. On the down slope, it will start fading out at the same distance (because it is the same throw) but have an additional 10 vertical feet to fall before it touches the ground. Will you get an extra 30', maybe, maybe not. When fading out, it won't be traveling directly away from you.

However, if you throw upwards on the upslope and downwards on the down slope, you will probably lose more than 30 feet due to the upwardness of the throw on the upslope and gain more than 30 due to the downwardness of the throw on the downslope, especially on steeper slopes.

And the problem with weight is that yours is a purely theoretical question. This is because in practice, no two discs are going to mold up exactly the same. A very overstable version of the same mold is going to get much less distance from the same effort as a more understable version of that mold even if they weigh exactly the same amount. And, regardless of your experience level, no one is going to be able to repeatably and reliably put the exact same effort into successive throws. There are just so many other variables that one ounce of weight difference just isn't going to matter between two discs of the same mold.

Others have mentioned this problem in one way or another and they are pretty much all correct. Humidity, wind, air pressure, effort, launch angle, nose angle (tilt), spin rate, mold, PLH, dome, warp, hyzer angle (roll), weight, dye color (just kidding) - there are just too many factors to consider and most have a much larger effect on the throw than minor differences in disc weight.

As a theoretical problem, I suspect that the answer to your question lies in a problem similar to external ballistics. Assuming all other variables are equal for two discs, then the weight should change the initial velocity and rate at which that velocity (and lift) decreases due to drag. The decay of the spin rate will vary between the two discs and fade will start earlier or later. Maybe a physicist will chime in and calculate all that for you. But as others have said, you'll never be able to tell the difference in real life.
 
So if a disc hits the ground at 300 feet on level ground, that same throw would hit at 270 feet if the ground sloped upwards 10 feet and 330 feet if there was a 10 foot drop in elevation?
That sounds about right to me.
Normally stated as a 300' hole with 10' rise requires the equivalent of a 330' drive on level ground.
 
It's true that a player may not be able to tell the difference between two discs of the same mold and plastic 2-3 grams different in weight. But it does make a difference in two key ways. The heavier disc will cumulatively require more energy from the player over the round and either its release speed will be slower or its kinetic energy higher if released at the same speed as the lighter disc.

In addition, the extra grams will be distributed over the disc when molded, increasing its volume displacement versus the lighter disc, slightly changing its aerodynamics. Since a disc's shape changes slightly during cooling, each disc will cool slightly differently based on the weight distribution, again slightly changing their aerodynamics.

These differences will occur, but as stated in post #11, the player doesn't have the capability to truly determine the differences.
 
I'm gonna say this here, as I have other places.....

People who think they would notice a gram or two of weight difference, either in flight or feel, are flat out delusional.

A few grams makes zero appreciable distance. I'm willing to bet that even a few more than a few wouldn't be noticed.

I could give anyone a stack of max weight "disc x" and a stack of the same discs 5g lighter, and it'd be a crapshoot if you had to guess which ones were what.

I am 100% confident I can notice a 5g weight difference throwing blindfolded if it's same plastic same mold. I'd bet 100 dollars I could call it 10/10. Also that +-5g does alter distance but only measurably when thrown into or with the wind.

So if you feel like buying 20 discs and doing some blindfolded field shenanigans, let me know. :)
 

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