PMantle
* Ace Member *
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Explanation of the physics of flying discs (FIXED)
- Thread starter Rameka
- Start date
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DGchamp
Par Member
KniceZ
Double Eagle Member
Assuming RHBH looking at the disc flying away :
With 2300 at 54 mph (79 ft/sec) the right edge is actually moving backwards at 3.7 ft/sec and the left edge is going 162 ft/sec. Or just over twice the main velocity
With 2000 at 80 (117 ft/sec) the right edge is going 45.2 and the left edge is going 189 ft/sec. Or just 1.6 the forward velocity.
Unfortunately there's no indication of the flight path of these two conditions. Did the condition with the most left/right speed difference (2300@54) "turn" the most? Or does the spin not have an impact on HSS and just help stabilize the disc and resist the slow speed fade?
KniceZ
Double Eagle Member
Somehow I keep missing this point :wall: :doh: :wall:
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More spin is going to stabilize/maintain the disc's angle of release, so it would turn less. Throwing higher velocity with lower spin is going to turn the disc over more.
KniceZ
Double Eagle Member
That's what I was starting to get from these descriptions but it seems that when I'm trying to turn an understable disc if I don't get enough spin it just goes straight and fades out.
Also does a person getting more "hit" generally have both more spin and velocity or just higher velocity than those of us that are maxing out at 300-325? It seems that since the hit comes from the final wrist motion it would be both.
Also does a person getting more "hit" generally have both more spin and velocity or just higher velocity than those of us that are maxing out at 300-325? It seems that since the hit comes from the final wrist motion it would be both.
wolfmandragon
* Ace Member *
On a full power drive, it comes down to form and style. The most hit comes without any attempt to snap the disc, just good form. Just as well, a bent arm thrower will produce the most spin, and Swedish style should produce the least.
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You need to get the disc up to speed to turn.
As noted by Erin, his buddy that doesn't throw as far had a higher spin to speed ratio and really cocks his wrist, and Erin doesn't snap the wrist like his buddy, says he keeps it tight like a spring. Interesting Erin noted that when he tried to spin the disc it actually spun less. Most the top throwers say they lock the wrist.
Kodachrome
* Ace Member *
Spin is a byproduct of throwing fast.
People who are throwing faster are generating more spin because they throw faster. It's not a separate characteristic; it's dependent. So yes. They are throwing faster and also generating more spin. However I think there is a point where you just can't control it anymore and what you get is what you get. Some throw with more and some with less spin as a result of that last part of the throw. Spin is a result of hanging on to the disc later into the swing...easier to do when throwing slow. So more potential if you are throwing fast, but easier to hang on if slow.
People who are throwing faster are generating more spin because they throw faster. It's not a separate characteristic; it's dependent. So yes. They are throwing faster and also generating more spin. However I think there is a point where you just can't control it anymore and what you get is what you get. Some throw with more and some with less spin as a result of that last part of the throw. Spin is a result of hanging on to the disc later into the swing...easier to do when throwing slow. So more potential if you are throwing fast, but easier to hang on if slow.
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wolfmandragon
* Ace Member *
I think we may be in agreement in general. Spin is created by coming off line with the disc still in the hand and releasing at the peak moment of lateral acceleration. If the disc is held too long, then the vector of the disc is changed instead of creating spin. Some styles are over all more linear from the start of the forward motion until the disc is released. These should have less spin. I would like to see this tested, but it makes mathematical sense.
So..... A full power drive will be dependent upon throwing style and how clean the release is.
But.... A lower power shot can be intentionally thrown with more spin. Look at M.J.'s upshots to see this.
Is this your understanding as well?
Snap-it
* Ace Member *
Different grips affect amount of spin too.
wolfmandragon
* Ace Member *
Kodachrome
* Ace Member *
I'm no scientist and not very good at math but it seems to me that all that really matters in this equation would be the speed of the hand/wrist at release at maximum arm extension and how long the person can hold on to get an ideal release point.
So no, I don't really think throwing in different styles would give you different spin for a given armspeed at release. I think it all boils down to the grip and when the disc pulls out of your hand.
And I don't really think consciously trying to clamp down or curl a wrist, etc, to impart more spin is a feasible pursuit. Maybe on the touchiest of touch shots. Even then, meh.
So no, I don't really think throwing in different styles would give you different spin for a given armspeed at release. I think it all boils down to the grip and when the disc pulls out of your hand.
And I don't really think consciously trying to clamp down or curl a wrist, etc, to impart more spin is a feasible pursuit. Maybe on the touchiest of touch shots. Even then, meh.
Snap-it
* Ace Member *
Fingers impart the spin though, koda. That's where it comes from regardless of arm/wrist, motion, speed, etc.
wolfmandragon
* Ace Member *
At low speed, absolutely you can. That's what a freestyle floater is all about.
The only style that may (and I stress may) release at arm extension is bent arm. With Swedish, the arm has to go off line to release, as the arm and wrist stays in pretty much the same geometry all the way through.
Spin is created by angular momentum, so either the wrist has to snap or the launcher(here the arm) has to move offline. This part is not theory, this is physics. At full power, the wrist cannot snap faster than the arm is moving, thus it is why trying to add snap slows it down. The wrist being loose allows the momentum created by the body to translate into snap.
Kodachrome
* Ace Member *
I guess my stance is this: in a throw you are going to have a hand, or maybe fingers would be better if we are talking the exact moment if release- the tip of a whip or end of a trebuchet -moving at x mph at the point of release. How they get there doesn't really matter. Swedish, bent arm, whatever. It's forward force then imparted with spin as a result of a levering action. Snap-it, you're right, the grip is an integral part of the throw. I didn't phrase very well earlier.
My possibly ignorant stance is this: all that matters is speed at release, where you are gripping the disc on the flight plate to increase leverage, the width of the rim, weight of the disc, plus how long into that levering action you can hold on for. The style, how you get there, doesn't matter. It's numbers in, numbers out and I don't believe there is any way to manipulate any one of the variables involving the human body in such a way as to give us different rpm for a given speed if all of the other numbers are equal. Sure, you could change your grip. But then that might change any of the above variables. If you change your grip but still hold on as long, gripping the same spot and having the same arm speed...well, then your numbers are going to stay the same. You might be able to grip farther in on the flight plate, but I highly doubt that will help. As the disc spins and forces its way out of your hand it's going to catch your fingers against the rim anyway and use them as a lever....unless it's a super touch shot.
Changing styles does not change the variables. For any given input you are going to have an output. Maybe some styles inherently lend themselves to controlling arm speed such as wide reach back, but that's not really what we are discussing.
If you have a lid or deep disc you could loosen your grip to let the disc roll off your finger more than being pinched via leverage on a touch shot, I suppose. That's the only meaningful change I can see.
My possibly ignorant stance is this: all that matters is speed at release, where you are gripping the disc on the flight plate to increase leverage, the width of the rim, weight of the disc, plus how long into that levering action you can hold on for. The style, how you get there, doesn't matter. It's numbers in, numbers out and I don't believe there is any way to manipulate any one of the variables involving the human body in such a way as to give us different rpm for a given speed if all of the other numbers are equal. Sure, you could change your grip. But then that might change any of the above variables. If you change your grip but still hold on as long, gripping the same spot and having the same arm speed...well, then your numbers are going to stay the same. You might be able to grip farther in on the flight plate, but I highly doubt that will help. As the disc spins and forces its way out of your hand it's going to catch your fingers against the rim anyway and use them as a lever....unless it's a super touch shot.
Changing styles does not change the variables. For any given input you are going to have an output. Maybe some styles inherently lend themselves to controlling arm speed such as wide reach back, but that's not really what we are discussing.
If you have a lid or deep disc you could loosen your grip to let the disc roll off your finger more than being pinched via leverage on a touch shot, I suppose. That's the only meaningful change I can see.
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But the wrist needs to be firm to transfer momentum.
Kodachrome
* Ace Member *
The only logical conclusion I can come to is that only grip really effects the spin imparted to the disc for any given speed. all that matters is how much of a pinch you've got at the end and where that fulcrum is located. The style of the throw does not enter the equation. Less of a pinch force or inward on the disc=less spin. More of a pinch force or outward on the disc=more spin. However, I think we can all agree that you want to be gripping the disc close to the rim, not out on the flight plate, so I think the argument is impractical. And a loose grip+high launch speed equals early release, also undesirable. So really the question isn't can you consciously influence how much spin is imparted....It's a question of how to produce the most spin for any given throw. And that is simple. Create as fast a hand speed as possible and hang on as tight as you can.
Snap-it
* Ace Member *
How do you get the spin throwing a football or baseball? Grip/fingers? Think about it...
wolfmandragon
* Ace Member *
Watch the Swedish throwers on slow motion and you will see a loose wrist. A locked wrist saps power out of any movement. The wrist is loose up until the hit, then it goes firm.
Experiment with it, try locking your wrist before the back swing and see what it does to the disc. The tension of locking your wrist will spread to your shoulder.
If it was easy to have the timing down perfect, we would all be pros. It takes some students years to learn how to do the proper loose tight loose sequence needed to perform a proper strike. I am using a strike, something that is much easier measured, to show what I mean here.
