First form check!

[Brychanus]

Looking at "your good swing video", it may just be because of the angle of the video, but it looks like your front leg lands less bend and you have an easier time to withstand the (m)ass, get a solid brace with a just beautiful balanced ending posting up on the front hip (can't remember the exact term).

The mechanics may not be completely polished or 100% correct in the "good swing" video, but it's most likely the best footwork I've seen from you in this thread. Nimble and graceful.

Next part is hard for me to explain. Engrish you know

You've done the math on a more vertical drop into brace, with forces etc. Have you ever thought about landing more "stiff" (less bended, as in your good swing video)on the front leg. I would imagine that you would have to use MUCH more energy, when you bend your knee that much and insist on "rising" through the shot.

Just a thought

All good here dude. I would love to retain the "Good Swing" video grace overall. I don't think landing on a more extended brace leg is a bad idea. I still get enough width in the stance (there are apparently data that a stance width about half your height is "ideal" for power). I seem to be taking and transferring some impact force either way and I end up squared up on the strongest muscles either way.

In the "Good Swing" video I still had a "rise into the release problem." Theoretically I think rise AFTER release is "decompression" and more acceptable (or at least, this is how I understood it). Here are some images where Sidewinder showed the arc the head takes - pro level movement usually is pretty compressed/low through the release even if it rises afterwards. I'm clearly rising more than you'd expect to see.



It's still happening in the last couple videos too as you pointed out.

So I'm just not sure how much I should care about the rise into the release I guess, or if I even have a way to fully fix it based on the weird rear hip.

Hmmm...


I've also started to notice some of my mechanics change a bit in the rear vs. side angle throwing inside. It's like the tendency to "lean away" is a little more coded into my brain from that side angle. I seem to be able to make my posture more aggressive throwing at the blue blanket, so I might record from the side there and see if that's true.

 

[Brychanus]

Question incoming:

You're "rising" throughout your brace (from when your heel touch the ground to release) quite a lot. I know I've seen SW write about finishing posted up on the front hip (balanced), but yours looks funky.. When looking a Simon and GG, they might rise a tad, but it's minimal from the slowmo's I just watched.

Care to fill me in here buddy? Am I off?

My legs are exhausted so I'll just form philosophize to scratch the itch while I rest.

I remember a while ago @SocraDeez was talking me through some javelin theory and talked about "up leg down leg."

As the X-step touches the ground, it's ideally a "down leg." You are drifting and dropping into the plant. This is assuming all the posture and balance goodies are in there. If you're achieving this action, your leg is doing some leverage, and the kind of work it needs to so that you carry forward and don't fall down and whatever "pogo-like" contribution it adds athletically in the X-step (which is a real thing).

The "up leg" is the plant and its "pogo-like" effect (the ground force reaction/resisting phase, including the springy quick twitch chain). It's either angled forward horizontal or more vertical or wherever in between.

Ideally I think what you see in most top throwers (there are again a few exceptions, and I think there are shot-to-shot differences) is one of a few patterns.

Yellow line is initial top of head on the right. White line is top of head roughly around the plant.

GG's is the clearest example of huge vertical drop (down leg thru X-step), major compression while bracing (through the "up leg") that he maintains all the way through the release (you can think of that as a huge leg leverage + spring-like effect going through that front hip) and then the finish is roughly the same height as his initial drop (up leg finishing its process into follow through because of the momentum of the swing coming through:


Another common pattern is the same through the legs (down leg, up leg), but due to the posture and follow through/direction of momentum, the head stays low, or gets even lower into the release, or sometimes just stays low all the way into follow through. Simon is doing the first thing here. Tattar and Jenkins tend to stay low including the follow through, etc.



Yet again sometimes you actually see a pattern which is down leg, up leg, but due again to posture and the balance point/trajectory, you get a drop, then a rise of the head into the release. This is evident in McBeth sometimes, but not always:


So IMO I think you're right to give it notice, Kennets. I guess one takeaway I can always bank is that whatever I'm doing or how the head rise looks, I want a balanced move even if some of the rear side is always going to have some funk. Maybe since my "down leg" is always unreliable and makes me "down the wrong way," I'll always get "up earlier into the release." I have no idea.

Pending any other input, I'll keep focusing on my intended release angles and see what I can do about this. Maybe if the rise is there it'll just be a fact of my move, maybe not.

Too much slack in backswing, you keep turning back after you plant heel. Your heel should be pulling your hip into the plant.

 

[Brychanus]

After SW+ kennets posts I decided to mess around with a few natural swing thoughts to see if it would help. To various degrees, I tried thinking more abrupt shift+let heel pull hip, max swing through CoG, max compression, and get a little more athletic on the feet. Not sure it did any good but I had fun lol.



Edit: I like some of the effects of athletic thoughts but these all seem to probably bring me a little out of posture with head a little too West relative to body so I'll tone it down a bit. Going back to focus on front heel pulling hip.

 

[Brychanus]

I was just doing a brief "system check" with ~10 half speed throws today and something interesting is starting to happen.

There's something about starting with more pitter-patter and bouncing around and feeling my hips and legs and butt that's changing the move. I'm also getting rapidly more sensitive to my balance in transition (e.g., Throw 2).

Going to pull on this thread for a bit longer.

 

[Sewer bill]

Ground connection is crucial to balance and only with balance can you manipulate the limits of your grip of your feet to the ground while throwing.

Toning down the swing and doing whatever tippity taps are comfy for you to feel the ground prior to the swing as you discovered can ratchet up your capability to maintain balance which permits your swing to become more natural to your own lever lengths and range of motion. Comfort is key to balance.

This can raise the overall limits of your swing until you can comfortably walk the line of slipping in the brace but that's a problem you'll encounter later in your journey.

 

[sidewinder22]

You are too over your toes/quad dominant, no hip depth. Note how Paul's hips are back deep behind the ankles, so he can leverage them.

 

[Brychanus]

You are too over your toes/quad dominant, no hip depth. Note how Paul's hips are back deep behind the ankles, so he can leverage them.

View attachment 338992

I'm not sure my rear leg will support this but I'll see if I can get more seated back! Thanks man.

 

[sidewinder22]

Do it in slow motion if you have to.

 

[Brychanus]

Do it in slow motion if you have to.

Seems like it should probably feel even more like my ass is pulling me targetward/winding me up; more compression+decompression force from rear leg in transition too.

 

[sidewinder22]

Note how my slow motion drill backswing moves/walks back deeper --->. It doesn't need to be exaggerated, but should feel very stable.

 

[Brychanus]

Note how my slow motion drill backswing moves/walks back deeper --->. It doesn't need to be exaggerated, but should feel very stable.

Yeah awesome I can do that dude. I think my rear knee will always tend to push out slightly in that weird direction as I transition forward, but I can fully balance into the peak backswing.

I wonder if taking just a bit more hip hinge into the move slightly more like Paul will help me find it even if it makes sense to go back to standing taller/less hinge after I get it.

 

[Brychanus]

And yeah that's really interesting, I looked at all 10 shots and the couple where I was closer to Paul/less quad dominant it's also starting to make clearance for the pocket/stronger whip effect and I stay somewhat more compressed in the plant.

I'll get after it in my morning practice round. You remain da man.

 

[Brychanus]

You are too over your toes/quad dominant, no hip depth. Note how Paul's hips are back deep behind the ankles, so he can leverage them.

View attachment 338992

NASTY. Thank you again man. All shorties so I could just slow down and throw. By hole 12 I was hooked.*

This initially feels a little "inorganic" and my balance was resisting change, but I kept focusing on the setup balance to see if I could nudge the posture and balance in the right direction. I found that I did need to add at least a bit more hip hinge/depth because otherwise my leg couldn't really find the difference between "too quaddy" posture vs. "more seated."

A little tippy and a couple misfires here and there but I can keep focusing on the transition at half speed for a couple weeks. As predicted we probably can't make the rear knee leak go away completely but I can get seated in transition by changing my initial balance. These immediately felt more "whip steppier."

I still clearly need to work on getting the backswing to connect better with the transition move (Door Frame). I think if I mix in more like the last throw with a bit less hyzer/more Jenkins, it might help tighten up the whole posture/backswing/transition "unit".



*Instant effects:
1. New meaning to the word "effortless" again. Feels like Whip step.
2. Parked 3 250-280' putter holes in the first try. Zero effort.
3. Was overthrowing all shorter putter holes accidentally.
4. Accidentally overthrew the longest hole with my fairway driver by 45'.
5. Pitter patter steps definitely help me get some ground contact & balance & avoid "freezing up" in the legs while focused on balance.

Ninja add: There I tried getting even a little more McBeth and slower. These "felt" easy but Deep Hip Hinge definitely requires athleticism. Whoa.

 

[Kennets]

You are too over your toes/quad dominant, no hip depth. Note how Paul's hips are back deep behind the ankles, so he can leverage them.

View attachment 338992

Not gonna lie. I kinda laughed and thought "YAS, even Brychanus is having trouble with being too quad dominant. ".

I'm having lower back issues and getting that hip depth is somehow a mental block..
But, when I focus on it, my throw feels SO much better and like I'm on the right path.

Good stuff Brychanus! Love reading your thread, it's so informative and easy to connect to my own form

 

[Brychanus]

Not gonna lie. I kinda laughed and thought "YAS, even Brychanus is having trouble with being too quad dominant. ".

I'm having lower back issues and getting that hip depth is somehow a mental block..
But, when I focus on it, my throw feels SO much better and like I'm on the right path.

Good stuff Brychanus! Love reading your thread, it's so informative and easy to connect to my own form

I'm in a pretty good mental state overall but this part is super annoying. Even now that my legs are physically doing better and I reduced the anterior pelvic tilt, my body always still wants to tip too much overall in that direction. It takes a lot to convince it to be more "seated" naturally over that rear leg. I just posted an update where I tried even a little more hip hinge and while instructive to my balance, deeper hip hinge definitely requires more athleticism. I look like I'm barely moving but there's a lot of force moving through there. Geez.

BTW!! It looks like head/body is starting to tend to stay down & I am getting more "compression" just from adjusting this too. Not perfect but potential there. I smell blood, but I'll take a break so I don't tweak something this weekend lmao.

 

[Brychanus]

I cycled through a few swing thoughts and found that "get & stay seated" in the whole move had the biggest overall effect. My balance always wants to tip off NorthWest if I don't use this swing thought and land quaddy (my knee feels it too), so I'll drill this for a little while at half speed or so. More "slash thru" the release point helps 2nd most.

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks like your knees are bending in the way of your backswing. You don't need much bend in the rear leg, stay tall and swing your right leg hanging straight down underneath you.

 

[Brychanus]

Espen has one of my favorite hops.

You are too over your toes/quad dominant, no hip depth. Note how Paul's hips are back deep behind the ankles, so he can leverage them.

View attachment 338992

Looks like your knees are bending in the way of your backswing. You don't need much bend in the rear leg, stay tall and swing your right leg hanging straight down underneath you.
View attachment 339062

Alright, I think I'm still trending a little too nose over toes on some of these but a little progress. Was aiming to start tying together the quoted above.

Rear leg/hip seems to be able to pull off something close to Espen or even side shuffle just before it slips out. Slips more quickly out of leverage with other moves. There's a sweet spot somewhere in there.

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks like you are trying to get your left foot xstep around in front your right foot and it gets in the way of your right foot stride. Try doing a little zig zag x-step so your left steps more to the right/east and your whole CoM moves a little same way, and then right steps a little left/west. Your right leg needs to push you slightly deeper east going into the x-step.

 

[Brychanus]

Looks like you are trying to get your left foot xstep around in front your right foot and it gets in the way of your right foot stride. Try doing a little zig zag x-step so your left steps more to the right/east and your whole CoM moves a little same way, and then right steps a little left/west. Your right leg needs to push you slightly deeper east going into the x-step.

View attachment 339154

My man, this made sense to me "on paper" right away. Let's see if I can get closer.

This felt more like a "bebop" sending my CoG back or maybe GG maneuver. Dunno if you'll like any of what was happening, but it already seems to help get my body more out of the way. I finally feel like I can actually swing thru & out from my pocket without getting bunched somewhere. I also feel slightly less "helpless" on my rear leg in transition because the prep-step/step before the x-step is helping the x-step more overall.

Mostly focused here on the stride pattern since it felt brand new (and super cool). First four I did horizontal pump, the last two tried two other pumps to see if it mattered. Still tended to tip a little but gradually getting a little more control over it.




Edit:

I tried more of the fully pronating pump to see its effects.

I think pronating pump gets me a bit more torque loading up the supinating backswing with a nice long move, but my center is a bit harder to move East, at least at first.

The horizontal pump with more supination allows my center to move more easily East but seems like it gets a bit less torque in the backswing (makes sense).

I guess both are viable in principle as long as I'm not collapsing and there are tradeoffs, so I will mostly work on the new strides and see where things stabilize.

Thanks man, v. Cool again