Getting scientific on form improvement

[petered0518]

Practice hasn't been going very well since my last post. I'm pretty hard stuck and not really sure what I should be focusing on.
I've primarily been working on rocking the hips and riding the bull, but I can't seem to settle into any hip movement/weight transfer pattern that makes much difference or improvement. In my practice sessions I'll work on a concept and slowly work up the speed, but I pretty much always end up between 54 and 57 in my medium speed work and then 60-63 when I try to gun it.

Anyway, I'd appreciate some fresh discussion. Even if it is re-explaining advice already given in a different way just to get it through my thick skull, I'm open to hearing it.

Here is my most recent practice, this was the best at 61mph:
https://youtu.be/rvO00iYMLPs

Another question is does anyone have recommendations for a pro to model my swing after? I'm 6ft with generally average proportions and my swing seems fairly neutral. I did the internal rotation vs external rotation tests and I'm very ER dominant (basically 0 IR range of motion at all). I've seen Gavin Rathbun mention as ER dominant but there isn't a ton of video out there on him and his swing seems pretty unique. I'm probably overthinking this, but trying to copy just one person might make this process simpler, so any insight is appreciated!

 

[bryantlikes]

Practice hasn't been going very well since my last post. I'm pretty hard stuck and not really sure what I should be focusing on.
I've primarily been working on rocking the hips and riding the bull, but I can't seem to settle into any hip movement/weight transfer pattern that makes much difference or improvement.

Looks like you're suffering from something similar to me which is getting what SW22 calls horse stanced.

This is where your toes are pointing opposite directions so your hips kind of get stuck and can't rotate. I think he usually recommends the reverse stride drill to work on this (I'm working on that still).



And he kind of explains the logic behind why you get stuck there in the gas pedal video.



Hope you find these helpful and get unstuck!

 

[Brychanus]

If you are ER dominant, your feet might not be too far off. But let me go after your motion pattern again because you've fallen into a version of a "flat" trap with some slight shoulder collapse (rounding) and maybe a bit of horse stance. Been there, done that. The way your arm swings and your front side releases your weight are the tells.

You need to be a pendulum. You're trying to get too much into a rotational pattern rather than a lateral pattern that involves natural anatomical rotations in one big pendulum. You're losing consistency and speed because you're trying to get more power in a flat rotational framework. You won't find it.

Don't be another victim to the flat trap.

Do the double dragon and show us what it looks like when you do it as big as possible. I mean as BIG as possible. It'll feel huge at first and probably look much smaller than you think it is on camera. IMO among many gems, this is maybe the single most brilliant whole-body drill there is. You might see a guy winging his frisbees around by himself like a lunatic. I see a guy who is teaching you to turn your entire body into two crossing whips with massive power from your motions. Once you understand the point of this drill you never look back, and you'll probably understand it a slightly different way each time you do it.



Then listen to how he talks about the power pocket and then try to understand why you would never want your shoulder to round when swinging a hammer or throwing it. What is his arm doing differently than yours to redirect a hammer out to the target? Why isn't he rounding?




Form model: you can try to copy one player. Just remember your body is yours and no one else's and your form will be no one else's. But I do have one for you.

Simon is somewhat ER dominant too. We **** you not: do you see how he was just a big ol' honkin' massive pendulum when he was young? Can you also see how all of that action is hiding in his modern form? Don't try to copy Simon on the right unless you've learned every lesson from Simon on the left. And he could ****ing crush it.

 

[petered0518]

Thank you Bryant and Brychanus for the feedback.

I'll be working on both of those drills tonight.

Brychanus, I very much see the "flat" aspect of my throw that you are talking about. I am not sure what you are talking about with the rounding/shoulder collapse thing. Would you mind explaining how/where you see that in my swing so I can think about how to correct that? Does it have to do with the angle of my arm relative to my torso or something?

Again, thank you both for taking a look.

 

[Brychanus]

Thank you Bryant and Brychanus for the feedback.

I'll be working on both of those drills tonight.

Brychanus, I very much see the "flat" aspect of my throw that you are talking about. I am not sure what you are talking about with the rounding/shoulder collapse thing. Would you mind explaining how/where you see that in my swing so I can think about how to correct that? Does it have to do with the angle of my arm relative to my torso or something?

Again, thank you both for taking a look.

YW - compare your throwing arm to Paul's. Paul is swinging the hammer wide in front of him and allowing its momentum to swing it toward his body, resisting pocket collapse and slinging it toward the target. You are pulling the hammer flat in toward your body.

 

[petered0518]

Yes, I've got you now. I've heard the term rounding so much but never really understood what to look for.

I actually already snuck out of work early to practice the double dragon. I'll post video later.

 

[petered0518]

It is a little bit rough, but this drill feels like it will be a good warmup going forward. I started with just the kicks then added the arms. The swing timing was off but I started to get a bit of rhythm. My hamstrings are incredibly tight which is why I have bent legs, but these kicks felt free flowing otherwise. I'll keep working on it:

https://youtu.be/s9cMYDYasVY

I also couldn't resist a few throws since the movement pattern was fresh. It is at the end of the video of me flailing, haha. I hit 63 pretty easily, which matches my best. Very encouraging after toiling with no progress for the last week. or so.

 

[Brychanus]

Rear leg - keep that foot leveraged more forward, it leaked backwards after the drill. The little puzzle you need to solve is how to get DD to work in optimal leverage moving foot to foot when you actually throw.

Keep working the DD and getting the weight committed forward coming off the drive leg into the crush to lead the swing.

 

[petered0518]

When you say it leaked backwards, are you talking about the foot angle, or something else? Just looking to be able to diagnose the problem in the future.

 

[Brychanus]

Yup, foot angle. It's a tricky thing finding the right position and leverage to get the weight flowing optimally into the plant. I'd keep doing the double dragon for a couple days, and see what happens when you get that foot angle more squared up to the target.

 

[petered0518]

Thanks for the clarification, and I will continue to watch that.
My shoes are worn (new ones arriving any day now) which contributes to that poor back leg leverage. Not saying that I can't improve on it because I commonly push off my heel, but if you watch closely my back foot commonly spins outward even while 100% of my weight is on it. Very annoying but it is what it is for the time being.

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks for the clarification, and I will continue to watch that.
My shoes are worn (new ones arriving any day now) which contributes to that poor back leg leverage. Not saying that I can't improve on it because I commonly push off my heel, but if you watch closely my back foot commonly spins outward even while 100% of my weight is on it. Very annoying but it is what it is for the time being.

I had to work on keeping my rear foot braced against the base of a wall at first to keep it from doing all kinds of weird slips or rotations or stepping away from the target. Door Frame Drills etc help keep you braced up in the right frame.

Also consider Hershyzer. I also find it helpful to exaggerate my plant stride standing tall and move from an extreme vertical with more down drop (young Simon) or stride more horizontal with more forward drop (Matty O). Then get lower and squattier and try the same. Anything to teach that drive leg what it's role is no matter how you move. It's usually easier to learn in standstills first than in the x-step.

PS - you're doing the right thing trying the drill then going right to the throw. Do a bit of drilling to exaggerate the action, then test the throws immediately when possible. Sometimes I do the drills on "off" days to reinforce motions that I'm really struggling with, but never go too long doing them without throwing.

 

[petered0518]

Same thing today, started with double dragon drill to get the feel and then did a few throws. I hit 63 again without even trying that hard, then called it quits because I'm playing a round on Friday (imagine throwing a disc outside, gasp). Here is a video from the side:

https://youtu.be/CHxIXBGlF-I

Obviously a ton to still work on, but I feel like you've adjusted my mental framework for the throw Brychanus.

Bryant you were indeed correct that I'm getting my feet pointed too far out, which you can see better from this angle. I still need to keep working on my balance point left to right and need to counter-balance with the back leg.

Also check the new kicks, the Idio shoes I ordered in January finally came. First impression is very positive, but I'll review here after an actual round with them.

 

[Brychanus]

Lmk about those shoes. I usually wear merrells but the ones I like the most might have just been discontinued.

Looking a little more pendulumy, keep going. Probably better to get you totally freewheeling then tone it down and clean it up.

Take the can can or double dragon bigger and bigger.

Also recommend to practice Hershyzer in a standstill and practice striding laterally toward the target wider. See where your flexibility is.

Once you're comfortable with those, alignments and posture flow are on the table. But it's important to grind away that flat swing permanently first and get the pendulum in there I think.

 

[petered0518]

Did some more warmup with the double dragon, did some practice one steppers focusing on hershyzer, then let it rip. In addition I tried to stay really loose and freewheeling per your advice Brychanus.

I'm getting some serious improvement! I was consistently hitting 64, then I got a 65 and a 67 throw. I don't know what specifically led to that 67, but clearly this is another step in the right direction since my previous best was 63 which I had only hit 3 times. Here is the video of the 65/67:
https://youtu.be/iwn_nbJPWc0

I don't want to work on anything new for a little bit because I really want to ingrain this first, but I'm open to hearing suggestions for what to be thinking about after another couple weeks of practice.

As for the Idio shoes, I got a full round in and I'm a HUGE fan. I'll caveat by saying I've only ever used worn hiking shoes as a comparison point, but for me the fit and grip is excellent. Much lighter as well. Unfortunately it was scuffing my carpet so you won't see me practicing in them, but I think I'll be way better on sketchy teepads going forward.

 

[sidewinder22]

You got more "Inside", but too far so you are too behind your heels and pushing off the rear heel with toes up, instead of moving pressure back into rear instep/toe pushing the heel up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio#t=6m5s

I would work on ^ Inside Swing Drill...

 

[petered0518]

Will do! I do remember getting a good speed increase working on that, but then I lost it when I turned my focus to the pendulum concept. I need to hammer in these concepts further.

This one (inside swing) will be stubborn for me due to playing ultimate for many years, where a more outside swing is rewarded with better reach and spin and you don't need the speed on the throw.

 

[petered0518]

Question for SW22 or anyone familiar with the drill, what should I be watching for in my video to say I'm applying the inside swing correctly? Like, is it more about the swing path of the back/forward swing or the way I turn my shoulders? I'm doing the drill but I don't really have a good mental picture of what it looks like in the throw.

Some musings on progress for those interested, the speed gun gives me insight into normal performance variation from day to day. I'm settling into a roughly +/- 2mph interval depending on whether I'm having a good or bad day. Like, say my average speed when throwing hard right now is 62 (that is an approximation, with all my recent work this is a moving target). A couple days ago I felt great and I was hitting an average of 64 with those two great throws of 65/67. Today I was just really not feeling it and almost didn't throw but decided to just do it. Sure enough when I tried to speed it up I was hitting an average of 60 with a few good throws hitting 61/62.

Previously that would have discouraged me because it feels like you are going backwards, but putting it into perspective my "bad day" average of 60 is still consistent with an average speed of 62 just like a good day average of 64. When I first started this thread my average was maybe 58 with the good days more like 60 and bad days 56. That is real progress. Just like anything disc golf progress isn't linear and you can't get too caught up in the daily variation, you have to look at the longer term trend.

 

[sidewinder22]

Question for SW22 or anyone familiar with the drill, what should I be watching for in my video to say I'm applying the inside swing correctly? Like, is it more about the swing path of the back/forward swing or the way I turn my shoulders? I'm doing the drill but I don't really have a good mental picture of what it looks like in the throw.

Like Paul ^ Right shoulder and knee are inside toes.

 

[petered0518]

Not a form update, but we are all disc lovers here so I thought I'd post about a DG outing. A couple of buddies and I planned out a trip to the Toboggan course here in Michigan. It is normally only open in July, but the park is finally recognizing the revenue potential and opened it up for October.

This course hits absolute next level in the fall. Beautiful fall colors, temperatures far more manageable as compared to July, and the dense underbrush is much thinner making discs way easier to find.

This course is always a bruiser for an amateur, but I played really well overall. Hole 15 is the second hardest on the course after 17 (IMO) and I was about 70ft away for a shot at the birdie that I missed by no more than 3 feet. Would have been the pinnacle of my career lol. I still had a couple of blowup holes, but it was the most fun I had discin this entire year. If anyone is within range I encourage you to try it!