Par 3 isnt viable for some holes

[CaptainAnhyzer]

Par does not matter.
Why people fret so much about it is beyond me.
Just shoot the course and add up your total strokes.
Then try to shoot lower each time you go back.

 

[bradharris]

I dont think I'm worthy enough to compete in an amateur tournament without completely embarassing myself.

I'm going to focus on this statement first. I guarantee you are worthy of competing in an amateur tournament. Especially in the rec or novice division. I've had tournament rounds all over the place. I'm pretty sure I was +20 once. And I've played in tournaments with players who ended up having far worse rounds than that even. But at the end of the day, we all still had fun and enjoyed ourselves.

But what I still can't understand is the logic that a hole of 225ft is a par 3 and a hole that is 550ft is only a par 3. I mean are you kidding me? I know its all in the tee off but who made up this rule? Good grief, talk about a disheartening thing to have to put up with as a new player. I guess logic and rulings dont necessarily agree.

Par is often not very well thought out in disc golf. The general rule is that par is the number of shots needed to reach putting range plus two putts. So a pin that is reachable off the tee is a par three. A two shot hole is a par 4 and so on.

However, what may be a two shot hole for one person is a one shot hole for another. So the lines get very blurry very fast.

This is where good course design really comes into play. And it's the reason that when I review a course, I highly value well done par 4s. In my view, a good par 4 is not one which is simply long. Instead it should have a well defined landing zone where placement is important in setting up the second "drive" to the pin.

A wide open 500' hole is lazy design with blurry par. Pros can park it from the tee while rec players may need three throws to get there.

 

[JC17393]

To be fair, though, I do this on the golf course and we have par 3s, 4s, and 5s. If par is 71, and you're -3, it's relatively easy to do that math too.

The only difference over keeping your score relative to even 3s is that you have to know what the hole par is. Really not a big deal.

Yes, but the origins of using 3 as the "par" in disc golf comes from the fact that a great many courses don't (or didn't) have tee signs with par and distance info readily available. So 3 became the standard fall back when the course had no posted pars, and eventually became the standard by which players counted scores regardless of what the signs or scorecards might say.

It works the same way as par does, but by and large it has little to do with the actual difficulty or expected scores on a given course.

 

[wake911]

Total strokes is the only number that means anything.

Total # of throws. There are no "strokes" in disc golf :hfive:

 

[NOStheBOSS]

Par does not matter.
Why people fret so much about it is beyond me.
Just shoot the course and add up your total strokes.
Then try to shoot lower each time you go back.

While I agree to a certain extent, it does matter with penalty strokes. i.e. someone shows up late to the tournament and misses the first hole and takes Par+4. If the hole is 1000 feet, do you want him to take a 7, which is maybe 1 or 2 strokes worse than you, who played the hole, or a 9?

adding up your score, yes, it makes it easy. Same thing in traditional golf with all 4's

 

[Kenny53691]

Once you start driving 450-500 like everyone else here you will understand.

Looks like I'm never going to understand........

 

[iacas]

A wide open 500' hole is lazy design with blurry par. Pros can park it from the tee while rec players may need three throws to get there.

Then that's a par three. An expert player would be expected to make a 3. Why would you base par on what a rec player will shoot?

Yes, but the origins of using 3 as the "par" in disc golf comes from the fact that a great many courses don't (or didn't) have tee signs with par and distance info readily available.

Golf courses didn't have established pars either. Originally, you just played against your friend, so you only had know who won each hole.

Golf evolved. Disc golf can take advantage of the fact that golf evolved to where it is now, and avoid staying with the "par 3" mentality.

 

[Grungedude42]

If the usual player cannot drive to the circle from the tee, be it from distance, trees, whatever, I think there could be a case for designating a hole a par 4 or greater. The concept of par always being three seems to be regional or more recent. There are several courses in my area with the original pre-Leopard pars listed. Many holes I can drive with a mid range are designated as par 4 and up based on these signs. The whole concept of par is to allow players to have some semblance of an idea what a typical player does on a certain hole. I think it's fair to use pars other than 3 on signage.

Now, what would be very interesting is a Par 2.5, 3.1, 3.75, etc, since so very often our holes are designed to be playable in 2-4 strokes. :dons flame proof suit:

 

[bradharris]

Then that's a par three. An expert player would be expected to make a 3. Why would you base par on what a rec player will shoot?

Because then the rec player complains that par 3 just doesn't make sense.

 

[iacas]

Because then the rec player complains that par 3 just doesn't make sense.

And they're wrong. Educate them.

There are "bogey golfers" in golf. They're better than your average golfer. They shoot 90 on a par 72 course. They don't expect every hole to add up to par 90 if they're a bogey golfer.

Why do disc golfers expect to be shooting par on a reasonable layout when their skills are not up to the level of an expert player?

 

[bradharris]

And they're wrong. Educate them.

There are "bogey golfers" in golf. They're better than your average golfer. They shoot 90 on a par 72 course. They don't expect every hole to add up to par 90 if they're a bogey golfer.

Why do disc golfers expect to be shooting par on a reasonable layout when their skills are not up to the level of an expert player?

I tend to agree with you on this. Just pointing out that the mindset in disc golf with regard to par is very different than in ball golf.

However, higher pars help keep newer players engaged. Shooting at or near par can give them a sense of accomplishment that lights the fire and keeps them coming back. Shooting well over par is discouraging and can turn players away.

For such a small sport, getting players engaged and interested is a top priority.

 

[ru4por]

I probably agree with most here. Par is for making a golfer feel good.....or bad. A 5 is a good score on my local 1000 ft hole. Is that par or 2 over? I don't care, it is a 5....good. Back when I started, there were really no score cards for courses, so the only par was on tee signs. Inevitably, my buddies and I would get to the basket and argue about par. Either nobody looked at the sign or thought they did. It got tiresome, hence we then began counting them all as three, ending the debates. More time for playing and drinking.

 

[JC17393]

Then that's a par three. An expert player would be expected to make a 3. Why would you base par on what a rec player will shoot?

Because there are a ****-ton more rec players than "experts" in disc golf, and we don't know yet what the limits of "expert play" are. The evolution of the player and player skills is out pacing course design for the most part. That much is clear just looking at older courses that were designed 20 and 30 years ago. "Par" on some of those courses was posted when everyone was playing with lids and was based on the concept of "expert" play. Those pars are a joke now.

That isn't to say that developing a standard for par isn't a desirable goal in disc golf. It's saying that with the pace of the game's evolution at this point, whatever standard we might decide on might be rendered obsolete before it even becomes widespread.

So in the meantime, if posting some pars at "rec" level means placating new players and keeping them interested enough to stick with the game until they reach a point where a more "expert" par isn't as intimidating or discouraging, I think there's no harm.

 

[iacas]

I tend to agree with you on this. Just pointing out that the mindset in disc golf with regard to par is very different than in ball golf.

Which seems odd, given the length of time each has been around.

However, higher pars help keep newer players engaged. Shooting at or near par can give them a sense of accomplishment that lights the fire and keeps them coming back. Shooting well over par is discouraging and can turn players away.

Golf is more difficult to start than disc golf, and does okay with new players. My kid is the size of a six-year-old and just tries to do better than the last time, or her best score, etc.?

First off, I don't buy that it turns players away. Again, golf doesn't turn a lot of players away because of PAR! It may turn off some players because of how difficult it is, but disc golfers aren't literally whiffing like golfers, so…

For such a small sport, getting players engaged and interested is a top priority.

You can have fun getting a 5 regardless of what "par" says for the hole. I don't think very many people are introduced to disc golf by saying "let's buy discs and go play." I imagine most of the time, someone who already plays introduces them. So if that someone who plays has fun with them, the players will come back.

Because there are a ****-ton more rec players than "experts" in disc golf, and we don't know yet what the limits of "expert play" are.

The same things are true in golf. But we don't call a 130-yard hole over water a par five because Mrs. Havercamp averages a 7 and we want to make her feel good.

So in the meantime, if posting some pars at "rec" level means placating new players and keeping them interested enough to stick with the game until they reach a point where a more "expert" par isn't as intimidating or discouraging, I think there's no harm.

Does it?

"Expert par" doesn't seem to discourage many people from playing golf. I've literally NEVER heard that as a reason why someone doesn't play golf. The inherent difficulty. The cost. The time. Those are reasons.

 

[padenbaumer]

There are "bogey golfers" in golf. They're better than your average golfer. They shoot 90 on a par 72 course. They don't expect every hole to add up to par 90 if they're a bogey golfer.

Why do disc golfers expect to be shooting par on a reasonable layout when their skills are not up to the level of an expert player?

agreed. throwing par at a great course isn't easy, and it shouldn't be. i played a local 18 at least 100 times to go from +5 to -5, isn't that why you practice sports?

However, higher pars help keep newer players engaged. Shooting at or near par can give them a sense of accomplishment that lights the fire and keeps them coming back. Shooting well over par is discouraging and can turn players away.

For such a small sport, getting players engaged and interested is a top priority.

maybe we should make every hole a par: do your best, then nobody will "feel bad."

i think the problem here is that disc golfers are dishonest. thats why it bothers them so much to admit a + score, and why they feel the need to throw additional tee shots or another putt.

take your strokes gentlemen, and learn from them.

 

[sneakytiki]

Years ago when me and my buddies would go to the nearest 18-hole course to us that had no tee signs or anything denoting par we would assign a player to be "par". That unlucky person would have to keep track of their strokes and everyone else would just keep track of their +/- with respect to them. If the worst golfer in the group got stuck being par we all shot WAY under "par" haha.

But yeah, don't get too hung up on par. Every course is unique. Some have easy birdies, some have tough par 3's. It's still the same for everyone who plays there. If you gotta take a bogey on a long par 3, so be it. Many others are porbably in the same boat. The last thing you want is a tear soaked scorecard falling apart into a pulpy mess in your hands.

 

[bradharris]

"Expert par" doesn't seem to discourage many people from playing golf. I've literally NEVER heard that as a reason why someone doesn't play golf. The inherent difficulty. The cost. The time. Those are reasons.

Ball golf also has the advantage of being much more well established. You can literally turn on the TV at any time of any day and see some sort of golf coverage.

Disc golf is still seen as a hobby, this means people will be much quicker too dismiss it as "too hard."

And people often have other motivations for taking up ball golf (business, politics, social status, travel, etc). These people will not be turned away nearly as easily.

 

[bradharris]

The last thing you want is a tear soaked scorecard falling apart into a pulpy mess in your hands.

That's why I use waterproof scorecards. :thmbup:

 

[sneakytiki]

That's why I use waterproof scorecards. :thmbup:

:clap::clap::clap:

 

[JC17393]

Bottom line is we're not ****ing golf. Golf has been around for hundreds of years to establish a baseline standard for "expert" play. Disc golf, as a formal sport, has existed for less than 40. Our baseline for "expert" play is ever-changing. Hard to establish a hard and fast standard for something that is still evolving. That's the point here.

Ten years ago, I viewed my home course as a "pro" par 58. There were four holes that I would consider "pro" par 4s. Today? Only one still qualifies as a "pro" par 4 and none of the holes have physically changed (same tees, same pins, maybe the trees are taller/wider). What has changed is the quality of the players and the technology of the discs in their hands. Holes that were unreachable are now reachable. I'd expect the same holds true at a lot of other courses.

So I'll stick with knowing that my course is a "pro" par 55 in which the "scratch" 1000-rated player is going to shoot 49-50 on average, and put a "rec" par of 70 on the signs and scorecards to keep the hundreds of rec players who play the course happy and coming back.