[Question] Question about wear, stability, and wind

[ArtemisClydFr0g]

I tried searching for this, but didn't find the right topic and/or combination of words. I have a question about the stability of discs, specifically in the wind, as they beat in.

Let's say I have a Teebird (7/5/0/2) and a TL (7/5/0/1). Both fly true to the numbers, are the same weight (175g), and are in the same plastic. Let's go with a premium plastic: Star.

I have now beat the the Teebird in and it holds straight for longer, with less dump at the end. It now behaves like the TL at 7/5/0/1 in calm conditions. The TL is not beat in and has the same original flight characteristics. If I throw both discs into the same moderate headwind (enough to affect the flight a bit), will they both fly the same or does the more stable/overstable Teebird have an advantage by nature?

My question boils down to this: Will a stable to overstable disc, when beat in, perform better in the wind than a newer neutral disc?

 

[GripEnemy]

Within your example the 0 1 beat TB will perform better.

Different variables (levels of beatness, which molds, weight, dome, which political party you're a member of) all of which will give you varied results. Do you have specific molds you throw that you want to talk about? I don't know how well your example will translate to your bag...

 

[Odedge]

From what I understand, the flights of a season disc will change by becoming more understable. So the Teebird (7/5/0/2) might become more of a Teebird (7/5/-0.5/2). The flight path of the disc will change, even though the finishing spot might be the same as the TL (7/5/0/1). I don't know if wear affects the fade, which is the last number.

With minimal wear, I think a more over stable disc will perform better. The more you use it and hit trees, it shouldn't perform better with time.

 

[Meillo]

From what I understand, the flights of a season disc will change by becoming more understable. So the Teebird (7/5/0/2) might become more of a Teebird (7/5/-0.5/2).

No, it depends. A Teebird (0/2) seasons to 0/1 and then to 0/0, whereas an Eagle (-1/3) rather seasons to -2/3. I.e. some molds lose their fade first then develop turn, some develop turn first then lose their fade.


Throwing into a headwind, the amount of turn (i.e. less HSS) is the more relevant factor. The previously more overstable disc (mainly the one which had more HSS) will likely hold up better into a headwind.

 

[mojorooks]

No, it depends. A Teebird (0/2) seasons to 0/1 and then to 0/0, whereas an Eagle (-1/3) rather seasons to -2/3. I.e. some molds lose their fade first then develop turn, some develop turn first then lose their fade.


Throwing into a headwind, the amount of turn (i.e. less HSS) is the more relevant factor. The previously more overstable disc (mainly the one which had more HSS) will likely hold up better into a headwind.

Interesting.

So a Thunderbird 9,5,0,2 will perform better in a headwind than a Valkyrie 9,4,-2,2 but a Firebird 9,3,0,4 should be about the same?

 

[wims]

0 isn't just 0. The Firebird 0 is more like +0.5 than 0

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

 

[Meillo]

So a Thunderbird 9,5,0,2 will perform better in a headwind than a Valkyrie 9,4,-2,2 but a Firebird 9,3,0,4 should be about the same?

Throwing into a headwind is the same as throwing faster. If you can throw 300 and throw into a headwind, the flight will be the same as if you would throw 350 or 400. A Valkyrie, that used to fly straight, becomes understable. A Roadrunner, that used to be slightly understable, becomes a roller disc. A Firebird, that used to be a meathook, flies more like a Thunderbird. You'll experience the same shift if you throw downhill. The opposite for throwing slower or with a tailwind or uphill.


In my experience, the flight path of a disc that already has some turn in calm condition is more affected by a headwind than a disc that has high HSS. If I compare a beat to straight DX Teebird and a Star Valkyrie, which I typically use for the same shots as they both fly very straight (the Teebird purely straight, the Valkyrie with a tiny S), into a headwind the Valk has more potential to turn and burn, despite being the faster disc; the Teebird fights more against it.

 

[ArtemisClydFr0g]

Within your example the 0 1 beat TB will perform better.

Different variables (levels of beatness, which molds, weight, dome, which political party you're a member of) all of which will give you varied results. Do you have specific molds you throw that you want to talk about? I don't know how well your example will translate to your bag...

It isn't a question about my bag specifically, more conceptual related to disc selection in the wind. I posed the question with variables being equal up until the seasoning of the Teebird.

 

[Lancerswimmer89]

The teebird is going to have more natural stability to it, so it'll hold up a little better than the TL, which has less stability. Until the Teebird starts getting really flippy, you shouldn't notice too much of a difference in the wind

 

[Twmccoy]

Throwing into a headwind, I'm going with something that has at least a 2 for fade. The wind will naturally help a disc turn. If you have no late fade, the disc will never come back.

In other words, any Teebird I have with 0 or 1 for fade won't be thrown into a headwind.

In a perfect world I'd probably throw a 3 fade disc into a headwind.

 

[slowplastic]

I also like to test discs out in a mild like 5 MPH headwind to see how I can trust them. That gives me a good indication of if they will stay straight when they beat in, or if they actually are on the verge of turning when I normally throw them, and any extra torque or wind or some wear and tear will make them start to act understable.

The best discs IMO hold straight no matter if I power them down a bit or hit them hard, yet don't flip if there's a slight wind. Teebirds for example can handle all these factors which is why I think they are so good...although some of them are very overstable for Teebirds and they are more like an Eagle or mini-Firebird, I'm not meaning that type for myself.

The TL I also think is a great disc and underappreciated, but they definitely have less HSS than the Teebird and you'll see that if you throw them into a bit of wind or have high arm speed.

 

[Meillo]

Throwing into a headwind, I'm going with something that has at least a 2 for fade. The wind will naturally help a disc turn. If you have no late fade, the disc will never come back.

In other words, any Teebird I have with 0 or 1 for fade won't be thrown into a headwind.

In a perfect world I'd probably throw a 3 fade disc into a headwind.

I think one should look at turn and fade separately, at least for understanding.

IMO turn should rather be seen from the other side, as High Speed Stability (HSS), i.e. the resistance to turn. 0 turn means that the disc has big HSS and thus resists turn strongly. It fights against turn no matter what speed (relative to the surrounding air) you throw it. The lower the turn resistance, the sooner it gives in and turns. A disc like a Teebird has a strong HSS, it'll fly straight in the high-speed part of its flight, no matter how fast you throw it (at least in normal human range). A disc with less HSS (i.e. negative turn number), like a Valkyrie, Eagle, Roadrunner will turn more or less, depending on how fast you throw it. All of this has nothing to do with fade.

Fade is how strong it comes back when it slows down. (I like to call it Low Speed Fade (LSF).) Independent of a disc's resistance to turn, it can have different amounts of low speed fade. When you play into headwinds, you'll always want to have a disc with a strong fade, because a dependable fade ensures that it'll come back, preventing a ``turn and burn''. It's a safety net. Fade limits the amount the disc can turn, because if it flies high enough, it has enough time to slow down for the low speed fade to set in and bring the disc back. If you have a lot of turn, it does not matter if the disc turned a bit or a bit more or even more. This is why an Eagle (-1/3) works in the wind: The strong fade will bring it back, even if it has turned. A Valkyrie (-2/2) is much less reliable, as it both, gives in quicker to turning and has less fade to come back.

In disc design, HSS and LSF are somehow connected, not fully but partly (see Roc/Cobra or Teebird/Eagle). To understand what's going on, I think it helps to look at both of them separately. If your disc resists turn well, you won't need that much fade. I think this is great, because such a disc, flies pretty similar in all kinds of wind conditions. This is the reason I like the Teebird.

Compare the flight paths on the Innova website for the difference between beginner and advanced, this is like the difference between tailwind and headwind:
https://www.innovadiscs.com/disc/eagle/
https://www.innovadiscs.com/disc/valkyrie/
https://www.innovadiscs.com/disc/roadrunner/
https://www.innovadiscs.com/disc/teebird/
See the Teebird to fly just the same, only different distances, whereas the Valkyrie flies much different (landing left or right), even more so for something like a Roadrunner.


Well, I'm a bit much into the details here. The easy answer is: Into headwinds, use discs with close to zero turn and big fade.