Reasonable goals?

[Rastnav]

As I've been getting more into this sport, I've been really struggling with trying to figure out what I should be aiming for. A huge part of my frustration is seeming to have no really good metric to judge my progress.

Before the last few months, I never played anything like regularly. I had a starter DX Leopard that I had played lots of rounds with at the course close to me, a very short course that really doesn't need anything more than a putter off the tee, honestly. That things beat in all to heck but I could make it work on that really short course, horrible form and all. Pretty sure I shot 3 down just with that disc.

But I went out a few months ago, and got totally hooked. Bought another starter pack, then a few more discs in premium plastics. And I got to a best round of ... the same 3 down on that same course.

But of course most places have holes that are longer than 180' and require you to hit a line with some power off the tee. I tried a different course near me and realized I'd need to actually do some work on things like form.

Fast forward and ... I'm probably a worse disc golfer overall now than I was before. Don't get me wrong, I can look at my form on video, and I think it looks better than it did, to my eye. But in terms of actual results? Every now and then I get something that goes better than it has before, but still, overall, it doesn't feel like I am any better than I was before in terms of not hitting the first tree available, or getting more distance, or shaping a shot the way I want or really anything else. And playing at that short course is doing me no real favors. It's like playing only putt-putt and expecting it to make you better at ball golf. But playing at "better" courses feels a little like masochism without the attractive leather get-up.

If I was playing ball golf, I'd be grinding for score. I'd start out not being able to break 120. Then 110, then 100, etc. Every par would be a revelation. Birdies would feel like eagles. Disc golf doesn't seem to really work that way.

Not sure if I am saying anything coherent or not, and maybe part of the issue is just not being able to actually play with anyone because of Covid, but I'm not exactly sure what I should be trying to do.

 

[ray1970]

I wasn't very good when I started playing (and maybe I'm still not) but I enjoyed it and stuck with it.

We have a couple of little pitch and putt courses in my area and I actually do still play them from time to time to basically work on my approach shots and putts. If I never played anything other than those courses I would feel like a rock star.

Getting out on a course where you actually have to get some distance off the tee will humble you when you first start doing it. Like pretty much anything else in life, the more you do it the better you will get.

I actually started playing with a small group of people who were all just starting out so we were all at a similar place as far as experience and skills. I think we all helped each other along as we learned and improved, kind of like a little support group.

If being on the larger courses is frustrating you then you could hit a field somewhere and just work on throwing without the pressure of worrying about scores or par or hitting gaps or lines. Maybe keep that up for a while until you're more confident with your shots and then give the course another go.

 

[F. Howl]

I think it's reasonable to want 500ft hyzers on tap and drain 60% of my circle 2 putts. I don't know how I'm going to get there...but I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

 

[zontar]

I played for about 4 months steadily without keeping score at all. when I started keeping score, I really enjoyed seeing where I was. you'll get there. playing a couple times a week will have you improving over time for sure.

 

[Dingus]

I think it's reasonable to want 500ft hyzers on tap and drain 60% of my circle 2 putts. I don't know how I'm going to get there...but I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

Like we all do. Lie on the internet :thmbup:

I'm not exactly sure what I should be trying to do.

The first thing to do is learn how to throw with your body instead of your arm. It doesn't matter exactly how far you are throwing, you just need to be able to throw with 0% bicep. Once you are throwing with a whip instead of your arm muscles you can quickly advance in skill while actually playing disc golf. But if you just keep playing rounds with the n00b form you will just keep on strong arming it and ingraining bad form. Go to the field. Do the Beto drill. Throw your discs without any arm muscles at all. Pay particular attention to OAT.

Once you can throw *properly* enough, there are three things you can do:

1) Be a form junkie. Watch every single video in the technique section at least five times. Hit the field 5 days a week. Work on each individual part of your form from reach back to heel pivot up to release. Your putting will suck. Who cares. You are in this to brag about your MASSIVE GAINS. Start telling everyone that if you can't throw a teebird 400' you are bad at disc golf. Take gimmes. 25'? That's a gimme. I parked that 350' hole with an aviar after all, I DESERVE that gimme!

2) Be a putting junkie. Buy a practice basket. Buy ten aviars. Then buy a bullseye basket. Then decide you want a shallow putter and buy 10 judges. Get really good with Judges. Practice in your basement all winter. Get 90% consistency at 30'. Spring comes and suddenly you have to putt outside in the wind and you drop to 60%. Buy 10 wizards. Discover push putting. Discover SPush putting. Everyone wants you on their doubles card, you make all the putts. Always lose singles, because you drive 300' on a good day. Always vote for the dinker course, always play short tees. Always have beer with you on the course.

3)Be a course rat. Play a round every day. Play a different course every day. Play the 9 holer by work on your lunch break. Always have your bag in your car. Every day at 3:30 send a text to everyone that says "disc?". Always carry $6 in your bag to play 51. Have three different bag tags for your state, local, and home course. Throw multiple shots on most holes, because damn I parked that hole with a roller last week and I know I can do it again! Throw 350', but know exactly the local route that gets you by the basket in 350'. Make some putts, miss some putts. Develop huge f'ing calves.

Hope this helps.

 

[Rastnav]

Well, at the moment I either every day or do hours of field work. It's very hard to take field work to the course, though. You don't have to hit lines in field work.

Perhaps I am just impatient, I don't know.

 

[Rastnav]

I've got a form thread going and sidewinder is giving me some feedback some I'm not flying blind on that front.

Throw your discs without any arm muscles at all.

I'm pretty sure when people say this, they either don't really mean it or don't know what they are saying. From a pure physics standpoint, if you succeed in trying to throw without using your arm muscles will actually encourage rounding. It has to.

Get to the end of your reach back. Now start your pull, which begins to turn your hips and your shoulders. If you don't engage your shoulder and arm muscles, your arm will just stay where it is, collapsing against your chest. The complete and total opposite of what you want. You can't get the disc into the power pocket without properly engaging the arm muscles to bring it along with the torso.

You can look at pros who are describing their throws as "effortless" and their muscles are standing out when you slow down and look at the video.

The bitch is, of course, doing it properly, which I'm not doing, I'm sure. But I wasn't getting anywhere when I tried not to engage my arms in the forward pull. It was making my problems worse.

Now, much like anything, once you do it right, I'm sure it feels effortless compared to what you were doing before. But that has more to with getting only the right muscles engaged at the right times.

And I'm sure a big part of my problem is getting on the tee and "tensing up", playing tentative, etc.

 

[Dingus]

I've got a form thread going and sidewinder is giving me some feedback some I'm not flying blind on that front.



I'm pretty sure when people say this, they either don't really mean it or don't know what they are saying. From a pure physics standpoint, if you succeed in trying to throw without using your arm muscles will actually encourage rounding. It has to.

Get to the end of your reach back. Now start your pull, which begins to turn your hips and your shoulders. If you don't engage your shoulder and arm muscles, your arm will just stay where it is, collapsing against your chest. The complete and total opposite of what you want. You can't get the disc into the power pocket without properly engaging the arm muscles to bring it along with the torso.

You can look at pros who are describing their throws as "effortless" and their muscles are standing out when you slow down and look at the video.

The bitch is, of course, doing it properly, which I'm not doing, I'm sure. But I wasn't getting anywhere when I tried not to engage my arms in the forward pull. It was making my problems worse.

Now, much like anything, once you do it right, I'm sure it feels effortless compared to what you were doing before. But that has more to with getting only the right muscles engaged at the right times.

And I'm sure a big part of my problem is getting on the tee and "tensing up", playing tentative, etc.

Do whatever you want man, but if you need to actively engage your arms to prevent rounding it means your top half is going too fast. Your arm muscles are going to hold on to that disc and preserve momentum created by your lower half. I honestly think Sidewinder is a terrible way to start throwing. He has great tips for people that already have a clue or are hopelessly stuck in bad patterns, but he has a lot of voodoo mechanics going on same as most ball golf instructors. If you stick with him you will surely get great distance but expect a long struggle and not a lot of good golf along the way. If you need detailed instructions to simply stop strong arming the disc it isn't working properly.

At any rate, welcome to option 1, "form junkie". Have fun posting high scores and bragging about internet distance :thmbup:

 

[azplaya25]

Like we all do. Lie on the internet :thmbup:



The first thing to do is learn how to throw with your body instead of your arm. It doesn't matter exactly how far you are throwing, you just need to be able to throw with 0% bicep. Once you are throwing with a whip instead of your arm muscles you can quickly advance in skill while actually playing disc golf. But if you just keep playing rounds with the n00b form you will just keep on strong arming it and ingraining bad form. Go to the field. Do the Beto drill. Throw your discs without any arm muscles at all. Pay particular attention to OAT.

Once you can throw *properly* enough, there are three things you can do:

1) Be a form junkie. Watch every single video in the technique section at least five times. Hit the field 5 days a week. Work on each individual part of your form from reach back to heel pivot up to release. Your putting will suck. Who cares. You are in this to brag about your MASSIVE GAINS. Start telling everyone that if you can't throw a teebird 400' you are bad at disc golf. Take gimmes. 25'? That's a gimme. I parked that 350' hole with an aviar after all, I DESERVE that gimme!

2) Be a putting junkie. Buy a practice basket. Buy ten aviars. Then buy a bullseye basket. Then decide you want a shallow putter and buy 10 judges. Get really good with Judges. Practice in your basement all winter. Get 90% consistency at 30'. Spring comes and suddenly you have to putt outside in the wind and you drop to 60%. Buy 10 wizards. Discover push putting. Discover SPush putting. Everyone wants you on their doubles card, you make all the putts. Always lose singles, because you drive 300' on a good day. Always vote for the dinker course, always play short tees. Always have beer with you on the course.

3)Be a course rat. Play a round every day. Play a different course every day. Play the 9 holer by work on your lunch break. Always have your bag in your car. Every day at 3:30 send a text to everyone that says "disc?". Always carry $6 in your bag to play 51. Have three different bag tags for your state, local, and home course. Throw multiple shots on most holes, because damn I parked that hole with a roller last week and I know I can do it again! Throw 350', but know exactly the local route that gets you by the basket in 350'. Make some putts, miss some putts. Develop huge f'ing calves.

Hope this helps.

Man this is fan f'ing tastic and probably the best thing I've read on this site. Well done sir


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[Rastnav]

Do whatever you want man, but if you need to actively engage your arms to prevent rounding it means your top half is going too fast. Your arm muscles are going to hold on to that disc and preserve momentum created by your lower half. I honestly think Sidewinder is a terrible way to start throwing. He has great tips for people that already have a clue or are hopelessly stuck in bad patterns, but he has a lot of voodoo mechanics going on same as most ball golf instructors. If you stick with him you will surely get great distance but expect a long struggle and not a lot of good golf along the way. If you need detailed instructions to simply stop strong arming the disc it isn't working properly.

At any rate, welcome to option 1, "form junkie". Have fun posting high scores and bragging about internet distance :thmbup:

I'm just trying to figure out how to enjoy playing the game while I'm still in the "hit the first tree available most of the time" stage while not driving myself insane throwing discs in a field. Maybe I'm in the wrong place . Thought that was what the noob forum was for.

But, there is a certain irony in simultaneously saying I need to fix something about how I throw while also insulting me for being a "form junkie". By your tone I'm taking you think "course rat" is the only valid way to play the game. I've been on a course six out of seven days in the last six weeks. When I get frustrated with hitting the first tree, I try to find a field that doesn't have people on it and isn't locked and try and figure out what I'm doing wrong. If it's raining because we have a tropical storm going through, I throw into a net in my garage.

Pardon me for not being able to throw well without working on it.

 

[Dingus]

I'm just trying to figure out how to enjoy playing the game while I'm still in the "hit the first tree available most of the time" stage while not driving myself insane throwing discs in a field. Maybe I'm in the wrong place . Thought that was what the noob forum was for.

But, there is a certain irony in simultaneously saying I need to fix something about how I throw while also insulting me for being a "form junkie". By your tone I'm taking you think "course rat" is the only valid way to play the game. I've been on a course six out of seven days in the last six weeks. When I get frustrated with hitting the first tree, I try to find a field that doesn't have people on it and isn't locked and try and figure out what I'm doing wrong. If it's raining because we have a tropical storm going through, I throw into a net in my garage.

Pardon me for not being able to throw well without working on it.

What I am saying is that you need to get on the first rung of the ladder and then go play. If you want to enjoy yourself anyways. If you are thinking about rounding and bracing and advanced form stuff it will not come easy. Just unlock your bicep from your throw and go at it.

Btw I thought I had written each profile in a equally ridiculous light. Most people go through phases of each. If you want to win tournaments you probably have to be in all three categories. I would say that the most fun is the course rat, if your definition of fun is actually playing disc golf.

 

[azplaya25]

I'm just trying to figure out how to enjoy playing the game while I'm still in the "hit the first tree available most of the time" stage while not driving myself insane throwing discs in a field. Maybe I'm in the wrong place . Thought that was what the noob forum was for.

But, there is a certain irony in simultaneously saying I need to fix something about how I throw while also insulting me for being a "form junkie". By your tone I'm taking you think "course rat" is the only valid way to play the game. I've been on a course six out of seven days in the last six weeks. When I get frustrated with hitting the first tree, I try to find a field that doesn't have people on it and isn't locked and try and figure out what I'm doing wrong. If it's raining because we have a tropical storm going through, I throw into a net in my garage.

Pardon me for not being able to throw well without working on it.

I mean...honestly, you came on here asking for help, someone gave you advice, and you proceeded to tell them that they don't know what they are talking about and explained physics. I thought the tone of the response was completely justified based on that.

I I've actually had a similar experience as you, I spent 10 weeks in a field throwing hammers..feeling the weight of the disc...filming...posting to my form thread. Every single day. Rain or shine. Went to the course and just smoked first available at every single hole. It happens. You just gotta find some joy in the process. If you're not having fun anymore, take a break. Frustration is going to make you tense and tense disc golf is bad disc golf.


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[Rastnav]

What I am saying is that you need to get on the first rung of the ladder and then go play. If you want to enjoy yourself anyways. If you are thinking about rounding and bracing and advanced form stuff it will not come easy. Just unlock your bicep from your throw and go at it.

Btw I thought I had written each profile in a equally ridiculous light. Most people go through phases of each. If you want to win tournaments you probably have to be in all three categories. I would say that the most fun is the course rat, if your definition of fun is actually playing disc golf.

Fair enough. I've certainly had lots of fun playing disc golf, and I would much rather do that than spend the majority of my time on form. At the same time, I'm trying to figure how to move forward. I can only play that same putter only course so many times. I'd like to be able to throw other discs And feel like I knew where they were going to go.

By the Beto drill, do you mean this?



If so, I'm not sure how one can describe that move as without arm muscles. The first thing he show is like 99% tricep. Maybe you really just mean "don't contract your bicep" which, if I'm doing it, is certainly counter productive.

Outside of that, this just seems like more, different form advice, which was sort of the opposite of what I was looking for. But, c'est la vie, I guess.

 

[Dingus]

If so, I'm not sure how one can describe that move as without arm muscles.

 

[azplaya25]

Fair enough. I've certainly had lots of fun playing disc golf, and I would much rather do that than spend the majority of my time on form. At the same time, I'm trying to figure how to move forward. I can only play that same putter only course so many times. I'd like to be able to throw other discs And feel like I knew where they were going to go.

By the Beto drill, do you mean this?



If so, I'm not sure how one can describe that move as without arm muscles. The first thing he show is like 99% tricep. Maybe you really just mean "don't contract your bicep" which, if I'm doing it, is certainly counter productive.

Outside of that, this just seems like more, different form advice, which was sort of the opposite of what I was looking for. But, c'est la vie, I guess.

Man this thread is a case study on why I think the Beto drill often causes more harm than good for new players. I discovered the Beto drill about 8 years ago, maybe 6 months after I started playing. I proceeded to spend the next 8 years trying to muscle the disc towards the basket. For years, the only disc I could break 300 feet with was a star mamba lol. Super frustrating when people who had been playing a year or less were outdriving me with ease.

In this drill, Dan Beto is trying to help people understand what is happening at the hit, but he doesn't do a great job of explaining everything else that should be happening before the hit.

Here is drill/video that changed everything for me, and I really wish there was a way to update the technique sticky with this gem as the first thing new players watch:

https://youtu.be/yBb_PeWHUhM

This is from Richard Hatton, he's fairly active on this site. Listen closely to what he says at 2:32. You are using your body, not your arm muscle. That is the key that so many people miss when they just watch the Beto drill and try to replicate it in the field. I would recommend just forgetting the Beto drill, go out to that pitch and putt course with a bunch of putters, and just do this drill exactly as Richard is describing. Once you've nailed this basic motion, then move on to the more advanced weight shift/can crushing/hammer throwing/golf swing stuff from SW. There's also some really good stuff on the heavy disc site, and if you want to get a good "feel" for the hit, his heavy bottle drill is solid. Really though, this loose arm drill should help you immensely.

 

[Rastnav]

This is from Richard Hatton, he's fairly active on this site. Listen closely to what he says at 2:32. You are using your body, not your arm muscle. That is the key that so many people miss when they just watch the Beto drill and try to replicate it in the field. I would recommend just forgetting the Beto drill, go out to that pitch and putt course with a bunch of putters, and just do this drill exactly as Richard is describing. Once you've nailed this basic motion, then move on to the more advanced weight shift/can crushing/hammer throwing/golf swing stuff from SW. There's also some really good stuff on the heavy disc site, and if you want to get a good "feel" for the hit, his heavy bottle drill is solid. Really though, this loose arm drill should help you immensely.

Believe it or not, I understand what you are trying to say. Or at least I think I do. In my younger days, I did a fair amount of martial arts, and many of the same ideas apply when you are developing proper form and technique. Sort of like zen koans, there is a feeling, an intuition, to be communicated.

All that said, notice what he does at 1:32 in that video. He puts you in a position where you HAVE to engage your triceps. At 1:50 he does more of the same, but forces you to engage your traps even more. Just the right amount, to allow the the big muscles of the body to do more of the work and try prevent oppositional muscles from preventing motion. You have to engage those muscles the proper amount, not too much, not too little, at just the right time, when they have the most leverage.

That particular drill looks interesting from the perspective of getting the feel of that "right amount".

 

[JuanA]

...A huge part of my frustration is seeming to have no really good metric to judge my progress.

This can be frustrating. Like you, I don't mind putting in training time if I have a goal, as well as a way to measure it. flailing aimlessly just annoys me.

What I would do is find "The Putter" for you. Then get 5 of them and take them to that small course you mentioned. If it can be played with nothing but putters off the tee, then do it....5 times in a row. Play each one to the basket.

If your best was 3 under, than shoot for 5...then 7...then 9. Make a game of it.

 

[Dingus]

this loose arm drill should help you immensely.

How is this not the Beto drill without a disc? Call it whatever you want. I think right pec drill is probably the more accepted term nowadays.

Point being that the key to starting disc golf is moving away from strong arming and linking your throw to your body, not your arm muscles.

OP, you seem to be frustrated by the form talk, and that wasn't really the point of my advice. You asked for reasonable goals, and I gave you exactly one goal which is very reasonable. Stop strong arming your throw. Most people look at distance plateaus as the goal, but I think if you can throw an OAT free shot without strong arming at ANY distance you have the beginning foundation to put together good rounds of disc golf. So that is my advice. Make your reasonable goal to be able to throw that OAT free shot at whatever range comes from it. And guess what? Your short course is perfect for this goal. Because nothing rewards your newly acquired OAT free form like driving a putter.

 

[azplaya25]

Believe it or not, I understand what you are trying to say. Or at least I think I do. In my younger days, I did a fair amount of martial arts, and many of the same ideas apply when you are developing proper form and technique. Sort of like zen koans, there is a feeling, an intuition, to be communicated.

All that said, notice what he does at 1:32 in that video. He puts you in a position where you HAVE to engage your triceps. At 1:50 he does more of the same, but forces you to engage your traps even more. Just the right amount, to allow the the big muscles of the body to do more of the work and try prevent oppositional muscles from preventing motion. You have to engage those muscles the proper amount, not too much, not too little, at just the right time, when they have the most leverage.

That particular drill looks interesting from the perspective of getting the feel of that "right amount".

Umm - I guess I can agree there is some muscle engagement involved in the throw, however, it should not be something you are thinking about at all, in my opinion. It seems like you have things figured out though with exactly how to engage the muscles, so not sure I can offer any other advice. Good luck !


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[F. Howl]

Well, at the moment I either every day or do hours of field work. It's very hard to take field work to the course, though. You don't have to hit lines in field work.

Perhaps I am just impatient, I don't know.

Don't know if this has been answered but, don't just go in the field and scatter your discs trying to get distance. I used to do this to warm up on a large open hole that the guys would empty their bags on before the weekly, and one of our local pros casually commented, "Wow. Your discs are ALL over the place." He wasn't actually giving advice, just trying to **** with me, because he's a friend and that's how he is, but it moved my rating from Intermediate to MA1 really quickly (and that's where I still am today... :wall

Visualize a landing spot for putters, mids, and drivers, all straight out in front of you in a line. Then depending on the discs, take the desired line to land them in those spots. Spike in hyzers, turnovers, Anny-flexes, straight shots, etc... To make pick up quicker and maximize practice time, move your driving spot up so the landing zone is the same for all your throws. Example: Throw all distance drivers, move up. Then fairways, move up. And so on.