Tech disc test driven development

[Brychanus]

It seems possible that if sidewinder is pronating through into the release and the "hammer pressure" through the thumb is there, then he would be getting some of that interaction of "up from the ground" vs. "down from the pocket" effect I was sketching out before. In that case the "true" flat angle would be difficult to maintain or even achieve that interaction.

I also wonder if the way the "pronate into release" would work is still relying on building pressure maybe especially through the thumb while radially deviating at the wrist into the release, and ulnar deviating into follow through.

I've never actually tried pronating with the tech disc but I'm convinced I'll get massive nose up when I do it from a few tests of it with approach shots where it was clearly way more nose up.

I'm curious about this guess. I suspect it also relates to the postural mechanics/details of the shift. If you are coming through with more rotation (axis vertical in overall balance rather than North-South tilted; and rotation parallel-ish to the ground) in the hips, you won't get the "upward from the ground and downward from the chest" force interaction effect I was sketching out. I think relatedly: posturally Neil you don't lead your throws over the front leg with the part of the Sidewinder exaggerates with a "Dingle Arm" (@sidewinder22 does, me too), so that's part of the puzzle. In any case vid could confirm the actual arm action I agree.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Also, I think it's possible to be pronating as the disc is ripping out of your hand without much of that pronation actually tilting the disc because it's already mostly slipping out and so you don't have enough leverage for it to tilt up, in fact, you could even be pushing it down with the thumb at the last moment. But if this is the case, imo, this should be clearly distinguished because the simplest way to think about pronation and supination is actually tilting the disc in the direction of the wrist motion which means you have to start the wrist rotation early enough for it to really tilt the disc before release and late enough to ensure it's not correcting back the other way at the last moment or verify it's being maintained if done early.

The above thoughts remind me of when I tested maintaining max supination to see if I could get similar nose down angles with it compared to turning the key supination and I couldn't even get ANY nose down. I'm left to believe (without a high speed camera) I simply couldn't maintain that much supination approaching and during the hit point and lost some of it under the strain whereas dynamic supination makes it easier to have the strength to ensure it's actively being applied approaching and during the hit.

Also, how much effort are you actually putting into the pronation? Like many things you often have to exaggerate it to clearly see the true effects. It's not uncommon for me to throw slightly nose up while turning the key or nose neutral and then the very next throw after nose up, I think to myself, ok let me really turn the key, and then boom, -10 nose down. So I can turn the key and throw nose up, but it means I turned it very gently and not enough to cross the nose neutral threshold. So I could tell people they could turn the key to throw nose up but I think that's missing the point and potentially misleading. But you definitely may have discovered an interesting mechanic that's unexpected or perhaps it works well with a pendulum path.

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah ^ I think that first part is also more likely if you don't have the forces coming "up" from the ground for the pronation to "counter it back down." If you have that component in the move, you can still get the final part of the whip to pivot from the index finger. Just a guess/little test from my one leg drill (which has more Dingle Arm in it, and if I only do a spinning move on the front leg without the N-S tilted axis and "shifting from underneath" it clearly doesn't work, or at least I couldn't get it to). I'm not entirely sure there's no supination in there because the final arm action can be subtly deceiving.

Outside one leg drill I've mostly been trying not to tamper too much with my arm pattern while working out bigger parts of the move again - so curious what Sidewinder is messing with there & hearing more details.

 

[itlnstln]

Weird data point, but I have a bad habit of getting "loopy" or "long" in my swing (to borrow a term from baseball and a bad habit I had as a baseball player) where I hit the disc a little closer to 12 than 10 o'clock. One way I can tell I'm doing this is that the disc is nose-up due the natural pronation of my wrist later in the swing into the followthrough.

Conversely, I was playing around with thumb push some years back, which is triggered by wrist pronation (the "OG" key turn). When I did it correctly, the thumb pushing the disc out also pushed the nose down, counteracting any nose-up. (When I did it incorrectly, the result was nose-up as expected. I abandoned the experiment because I couldn't nail it consistently)

 

[RowingBoats]

Weird data point, but I have a bad habit of getting "loopy" or "long" in my swing (to borrow a term from baseball and a bad habit I had as a baseball player) where I hit the disc a little closer to 12 than 10 o'clock. One way I can tell I'm doing this is that the disc is nose-up due the natural pronation of my wrist later in the swing into the followthrough.

I would personally bet that this is one of the absolute most major causes of nose-up throws.

It's cool to discuss all of this wrist/grip stuff, but I think it's being way, way, way overcomplicated myself.

 

[itlnstln]

I would personally bet that this is one of the absolute most major causes of nose-up throws.

It's cool to discuss all of this wrist/grip stuff, but I think it's being way, way, way overcomplicated myself.

That's right. The first time I noticed this, I kept trying to "pour the coffee" more. Obviously, this didn't help.

Related-ish: my cue for fixing the "loopy" swing is "get the bat head through the zone"

 

[Brychanus]

I would personally bet that this is one of the absolute most major causes of nose-up throws.

It's cool to discuss all of this wrist/grip stuff, but I think it's being way, way, way overcomplicated myself.

That's right. The first time I noticed this, I kept trying to "pour the coffee" more. Obviously, this didn't help.

Related-ish: my cue for fixing the "loopy" swing is "get the bat head through the zone"

So far one overall conclusion I would offer/am waiting to be refuted is "many ways to whip it."

 

[RowingBoats]

That's right. The first time I noticed this, I kept trying to "pour the coffee" more. Obviously, this didn't help.

Related-ish: my cue for fixing the "loopy" swing is "get the bat head through the zone"

I thought this was in one of the more dedicated nose-down threads, so I didn't mean to de-rail tech-disc talk. I guess it mostly fits in where the discussion currently is though.

I think you should elaborate on what you meant by "get the bat head through the zone", if you have time I think I know exactly what you mean.

 

[itlnstln]

I thought this was in one of the more dedicated nose-down threads, so I didn't mean to de-rail tech-disc talk. I guess it mostly fits in where the discussion currently is though.

I think you should elaborate on what you meant by "get the bat head through the zone", if you have time I think I know exactly what you mean.

In a baseball bat swing, there's a point in time where the wrists turn over and the bat head gets in front of the hands. It is right about here (or an instant after)

Ideally, this is the position where the hitter makes contact. Up until this point, the hands lead the head of the bat:

If you hit the ball while your hands are in front, the ball will (generally) go the "opposite way," or "early release" in disc golf parlance - this can also very much be rounding.

If you hit the ball later than this point, you "pull" the ball, or "late release." *

More importantly, if you hit the ball before or after this point, you lose a lot of smash factor. Getting the bat head through the zone solves a problem where the hands stay ahead of the head of the bat. As it pertains to disc golf, this phenomenon refers to not transferring force to the disc efficiently, not cracking the whip, or hammering the nail late in the swing


(* baseball players do these things on purpose, but that's a different discussion)

EDIT:

Here's an example of Tony Gwynn who made a career off hits the opposite way:

This is *not* getting the bat head through the zone. You can see his hands are in front of the bat head and also how not-as-powerful this hit point would be (you can also see that he's firmly braced with the rear food de-weighted)

(if you're not a baseball fan, especially of this era, Gwynn is an all-time great hitter who hit like this on purpose. Ichiro had some similar characteristics)

EDIT 2 (sorry!):

If the objective is to hammer the nail in the wall like in this pic (sorry, can't find the better Sidewinder pic I'm thinking of):

Not getting the bat head through the zone is like hitting the nail with the base of the handle. By the time the hammer head swings around, your arm, hand, etc. are already past the wall

EDIT3 (not sorry!):
If you look at the first image of Ken Griffey Jr., you'll also notice that the bat is at the ~10:00 position... just like where you might feel the hit in the Dingle Arm drill. Not coincidental.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Tried a "Frankenstein preset form" combining a bunch of preset things I've tested before all together into one form. My only complaint was the precoiling making it hard to see the target.

 

[itlnstln]

Looking at this data, I'm going to experiment with a (partial) precoil. I have issues from time to time getting out of sync on longer throws where it feels like I'm still trying to coil when the rest of my body is ready to throw. Bad things ensue. If I can get to coiled position faster, I can focus on the swing out

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Looking at this data, I'm going to experiment with a (partial) precoil. I have issues from time to time getting out of sync on longer throws where it feels like I'm still trying to coil when the rest of my body is ready to throw. Bad things ensue. If I can get to coiled position faster, I can focus on the swing out

Precoiling is most challenging on the faster runups I've found. If it weren't hard to see the target, I'd love it probably.

26:05 for Jake Hebenheimer's full runup 633 ft drive with precoiling:

 

[Brychanus]

I wonder if he started with that and adapted his move around it or vice versa

 

[Brychanus]

In a baseball bat swing, there's a point in time where the wrists turn over and the bat head gets in front of the hands. It is right about here (or an instant after)

Ideally, this is the position where the hitter makes contact. Up until this point, the hands lead the head of the bat:

If you hit the ball while your hands are in front, the ball will (generally) go the "opposite way," or "early release" in disc golf parlance - this can also very much be rounding.

If you hit the ball later than this point, you "pull" the ball, or "late release." *

More importantly, if you hit the ball before or after this point, you lose a lot of smash factor. Getting the bat head through the zone solves a problem where the hands stay ahead of the head of the bat. As it pertains to disc golf, this phenomenon refers to not transferring force to the disc efficiently, not cracking the whip, or hammering the nail late in the swing


(* baseball players do these things on purpose, but that's a different discussion)

EDIT:

Here's an example of Tony Gwynn who made a career off hits the opposite way:

This is *not* getting the bat head through the zone. You can see his hands are in front of the bat head and also how not-as-powerful this hit point would be (you can also see that he's firmly braced with the rear food de-weighted)

(if you're not a baseball fan, especially of this era, Gwynn is an all-time great hitter who hit like this on purpose. Ichiro had some similar characteristics)

EDIT 2 (sorry!):

If the objective is to hammer the nail in the wall like in this pic (sorry, can't find the better Sidewinder pic I'm thinking of):

Not getting the bat head through the zone is like hitting the nail with the base of the handle. By the time the hammer head swings around, your arm, hand, etc. are already past the wall

EDIT3 (not sorry!):
If you look at the first image of Ken Griffey Jr., you'll also notice that the bat is at the ~10:00 position... just like where you might feel the hit in the Dingle Arm drill. Not coincidental.

Props also for the top-tier hammer add-on to this post

 

[Brychanus]

I'm still perplexed about how what felt like a burning over anhyzer was still hyzer.

Do you remember the release angle readings you got on this when "intending a burning anhyzer"? I'm still fascinated by the "anhyzer-on-hyzer" idea in general.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Do you remember the release angle readings you got on this when "intending a burning anhyzer"? I'm still fascinated by the "anhyzer-on-hyzer" idea in general.

I don't, I haven't tested it a lot because I'm focusing so much more on being able to throw 30, 20, or 10 degrees of hyzer since most of the time the 20 or 10 is what you want for shot that turns a lot depending on how stable the disc is.

This throw below (first one in vid) that you've seen before, I think, felt like extreme anhyzer to me, but you can see it's pretty flat on release. When I first got the tech disc my first thought was to dial in throwing flat as a baseline and then work my way to more hyzer for there but I quickly realized I had to feel like I was throwing way too much anhyzer just to get to flat and so I didn't want to get too used to that because I knew I'd end up having to throw OS flexes way too often if that was my release angle on high speed throws.

Stable champion wraith, only flips in medium to high headwind:


When I threw -5 to -10 hyzer with the tech disc, it felt like I was throwing a roller, which would've been true for most discs unless the release angle was pretty dang high and it's really OS so it has time to come out of it. When I occasionally try to throw my beefiest 12 speed on a big high flex line, I usually don't put enough anny on that, because it's almost the only time I actually truly need some anny at the actual release.

Most holes that have a long rightward turning tunnel I throw a neutral disc at or above it's speed on like 10 degrees of hyzer and it holds the turn. The only shot I feel like I'm missing on courses by almost never throwing anhyzer is throwing actually pretty flat and hard but with a decently stable disc so it turns a decent amount initially but fights out of it more reliably and the burn over miss is less likely than trying to throw a flipper disc on like 10 deg of hyzer to get the turn. Also, interestingly, psychologically it's kinda hard to commit to the 10 deg hyzer-to-turn shape in the woods because you have to commit to the feeling of throwing it into the trees along the left (outside) side of the fairway, so sometimes my body naturally wants to throw less hyzer to feel like the throwing motion is more aligned with the turning fairway, so that's where the more OS flatter release shot would be nice to dial in, like this one from Isaac:

8:51

This brings into the question an interesting dilemma, when you discover you have this discrepancy between the angle that you feel you are throwing vs the actual angle, what should you do? Ignore the data and keep using your swing thoughts like "throw flat" even though you know it's actually 10-20 deg hyzer? Or should you practice changing the swing though to "throw 10-20 deg hyzer (which feels like I'm throwing flat)" where you can remove the parenthetical part after you get used to reconciling the thought and the feeling.

The only reason throwing 10-20 feels like throwing flat is because of what people say and what you see (the disc flying straight but you missed seeing it flip up because of good head position) so the feeling that 10-20 is flat isn't even genuine IMO, it's based on wrong info you've been told and seen repeatedly. I'd much rather reconcile it myself so that when I practice with my tech disc I'm not constantly having to maintain some cognitive dissonance, lol.

 

[RowingBoats]

Do you remember the release angle readings you got on this when "intending a burning anhyzer"? I'm still fascinated by the "anhyzer-on-hyzer" idea in general.

I'm pretty curious about this too.

I am doubly curious because I live in CO and everyone throws some pretty darn true anhyzer angles fairly often here. But I also see pros throw big annies, so Im not sure what this 'anhyzers are actually almost hyzer' concept is trying to say.

 

[Brychanus]

I'm pretty curious about this too.

I am doubly curious because I live in CO and everyone throws some pretty darn true anhyzer angles fairly often here. But I also see pros throw big annies, so Im not sure what this 'anhyzers are actually almost hyzer' concept is trying to say.

I'm not even sure I like the phrase I'm using, it's just the pattern we chatted about briefly after I put this post:

Repository of Cool Images

Elvis had a pretty good golf swing and guitar toss.

www.dgcoursereview.com

I'm kind of mostly talking about the way the arm and postural angle are still the "same" but the pitch of the swing axis/CoG changes like Sidewinder marked up later. At least in these guys, for high-power shots, the disc, hand, elbow, and shoulder are lower than one another in that order, and the disc is often initially slightly hyzer at release but quickly turning over (so it looks "anhyzer" moments after the release but it's often more like a shallow turnover or shallow hyzerflip). Maybe it's looking different in throwers from CO.

IIRC you and I are happy "hyzer guys" so my interest is really piqued by this. I'm probably also coping because if it counts as throwing "anhyzer" like this I am a happy camper lmao

 

[sidewinder22]

Do you remember the release angle readings you got on this when "intending a burning anhyzer"? I'm still fascinated by the "anhyzer-on-hyzer" idea in general.

Think he only had 2 throws register as anhyzer one was the max speed 65mph with 4 degrees anhyzer. The other was 2 degrees 59mph.

 

[Brychanus]

Think he only had 2 throws register as anhyzer one was the max speed 65mph with 4 degrees anhyzer. The other was 2 degrees 59mph.

Did you see anything/buy into the idea that his faster anhyzers were sometimes shallow hyzers that became turnovers/hyzerflips? Sounds like true anhyzer could come out near his fastest speeds at least in this case.

Edit: also still super curious how much you can potentially get a "gravity boost" from the posture and tilt and at the end of the move the wrist is changing the release angle to anhyzer.