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The 2017 Memorial Presented by Discraft
- Thread starter discallday
- Start date
When he says he "did the math" correctly, he means that based on the numbers that were written on the card, he added it up correctly. That doesn't mean that the total he arrived at was his correct score.
In the final round, a hole was recorded on the scorecard as a 3 where he actually only threw twice with no penalties. This was verified on the online scoring, which shows it as a 2. He wrote 46 as his total on his card. His correct score, per online scoring, was 45. That is what he was penalized for. He didn't catch that the 3 should have been a 2.
If that's truly the case JC, then :doh: on Ricky. I mean really? How can he not know his actual total score without even looking at the card? And twice in the same event?
I do the same thing myself; I like being able to go back and look at how I've improved at tournaments, and then also it makes double checking recording and math much easier.
As to how this can happen, I've done it before in casual rounds and tryout rounds with the club. You're focused on the round, and everyone is calling out numbers so it's easy to have a brain fart and write down everyone as a 3, or mix up which line on the card is which. I usually put the first initial or two of everyone on the card in the back 9 total to help keep it straight, but it can still be easy to just absentmindedly make a mistake; that sucks it happened twice in one tournament but that's just how it goes sometimes
I always keep my own score. It is a very common practice around here, well in GM divisions anyway. I have to guess a couple of players were just mixed up when writing down the scores for a hole. That is pretty easy to do. I would gladly ship him a couple Discraft erasable scorecard for tournament use. Easy to carry, waterproof and you can reuse them round after round. Ricky???
I don't get it, hell.. I keep track of my own score easily...just using my brain. At this level and when it's your livelihood, I can't begin to fathom why anyone wouldn't have a secondary system in place to verify your score. Either writing your own score down, or getting a volunteer to walk your round with you and keep track of score, etc, etc. At the least...give everyone a score card and take everyone's score. jeesh....
If that's truly the case JC, then :doh: on Ricky. I mean really? How can he not know his actual total score without even looking at the card? And twice in the same event?
Keep in mind that he's on the lead card in both instances. That means there's a scoreboard walking with them that is constantly updating the standings for the group. And that scoreboard was correct even when the card was not. He was seeing that he was at minus-whatever, so many ahead or behind each of his competitors. That's probably what he was focused on during the round rather than his total score. I know I've been on lead cards where I know I'm up 2 on Joe and down 1 to Jim and that's my entire focus so damned if I know where I am in terms of my what my round score is/should be.
Another factor is that the only score he's likely seeing as he's totaling his card is his own. Each player had one scorecard for the week. So he does the math and adds up his card, but isn't seeing McBeth's or Lizotte's scores in front of him in order to compare and verify that his total shows him as being two throws behind Simon and three behind Paul as he believed. Had he had that (or even just asked to verify), he might have seen that the score he was signing for had him 3 and 4 behind instead and corrected it.
It's fairly easy to see how it could happen to any player in that situation. Harder to see how it happens twice in one tournament since you'd expect the player to be more vigilant after the first time. But it doesn't excuse the player from not being on the ball and having or taking advantage of safeguards to avoid making the mistakes. Players are responsible for their own scores without exception.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
These episodes show scorekeeping redundancy needs to happen sooner than later at the top of the game. Professionalism demands it. Golf has it right- keep your score and someone else's and incorrect card=DQ. The idea that turning in an incorrect card is a measly 2 stroke penalty makes disc golf look way less "ready for prime time" than a course full of Par 2 holes.
How it could happen a second time to a player who was already penalized for it in the event is beyond me.
How it could happen a second time to a player who was already penalized for it in the event is beyond me.
So not only did Ricky not know his total score, he also did not mentally go through each hole to verify his scores on the card matched his recollection for each hole. My question to him would be, why? If he knows math and memory are issues for him, then at the least, he absolutely needs to start keeping his own score.
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
- Messages
- 6,840
Yes. There are several examples of it actually happening, even at the top levels. It's a self-officiated sport. Anyone who wouldn't isn't really playing the game.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
If I recall what Paul said, one error added a stroke, and one took away. Don't bet on that though.
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lyleoross
* Ace Member *
Paul did it just last year. So did Cat I think. Paul was annoyed because it was obvious that other players made the same mistake that cost him a penalty and didn't step up.
Yes. Ricky turned in a score for round 2 that was one throw lower than it should have been and a score for round 4 that was on throw higher than it should have been. So the total of his incorrect scores matched the total of his correct scores, absent the four penalty throws.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
If that's truly the case JC, then :doh: on Ricky. I mean really? How can he not know his actual total score without even looking at the card? And twice in the same event?
I actually feel bad for Ricky. Yeah, he should have caught it, but still. What escapes me is someone saying "two" and someone hearing three. That's hard to get to. I'm not assessing blame, for all I know, Ricky gave his score with a mouth full of hot dog. It's just odd. I've miss given scores, but never had someone not write down the score I gave them. Really weird to my mind. BTW, when I miss scored, I dropped a stroke. Bad hole stopped paying attention. I was damned embarrassed when my cardmates caught it. I check and double check and if I'm not sure I ask my cardmates to go through the hole with me.
For several years, USDGC has had every player take everyone's score on each hole. That is, each player gets 4 scorecards. At the end of the round, each of the four competitors adds up the scores of all players, they compare all the cards to each other, and you turn in your own card as the official card. It makes for a lot of writing, but there are several advantages.
At each hole, you are pretty much forced to sit in a huddle and deliberately go through each player's score for the hole before. You don't have the one scorekeeper writing them down while walking to the next hole, shouting to the rest of the card from 40 feet away, "yo, Johnny, 3?"
At the end of the round, if there's a discrepancy in math or in recorded values, it will definitely be found. (And that happens a lot at Winthrop Gold, where there are a lot of 6s, 7s, and 8s on the scorecard.)
Several years ago I was carrying the scoreboard for the 2nd card for the final round of USDGC. On the teepad of Hole 2 when they're starting to take scores for Hole 1, Feldberg said, "Here's how this is going to work. My girlfriend will take all of the scorecards from all of you and will record all the scores on all the cards. It'll save everyone a lot of writing." He was more interested in not having to write the scores down than he was in following the error-checking protocol.
Maybe we should DQ people for turning in the wrong score.... That might have gotten his attention.
At each hole, you are pretty much forced to sit in a huddle and deliberately go through each player's score for the hole before. You don't have the one scorekeeper writing them down while walking to the next hole, shouting to the rest of the card from 40 feet away, "yo, Johnny, 3?"
At the end of the round, if there's a discrepancy in math or in recorded values, it will definitely be found. (And that happens a lot at Winthrop Gold, where there are a lot of 6s, 7s, and 8s on the scorecard.)
Several years ago I was carrying the scoreboard for the 2nd card for the final round of USDGC. On the teepad of Hole 2 when they're starting to take scores for Hole 1, Feldberg said, "Here's how this is going to work. My girlfriend will take all of the scorecards from all of you and will record all the scores on all the cards. It'll save everyone a lot of writing." He was more interested in not having to write the scores down than he was in following the error-checking protocol.
Maybe we should DQ people for turning in the wrong score.... That might have gotten his attention.
corin_brown
Eagle Member
Bummer.
"The real gender-equality struggles in the US in 2017?"
Go on... Tell us more...
opcorn:Lol, c'mon man. You don't see the irony here? You seriously don't understand why the FPO players you've slagged for voicing ideas you disagree with haven't reached out to you? Really?
Why WOULD they reach out? Given all that you've stated already about THEIR ideas, why would they think that reaching out to you would accomplish anything other than a fraught argument finishing at a dead end? Your ideas and policies are clearly stated and you seem firmly entrenched - why would an FPO player think that you would at all be receptive to hearing, again, any of the ideas you've already argued so strongly against?
I really don't get your line here, man. You're in the sports media business, right? You're trying to cast a wider net, right? You might harbor private beefs, frustrations, disagreements with certain prominent pros but where's the upside in taking those public and risking turning off them or their fans?
Forgetting the relative merits of an oppressed group's arguments for a moment, no group that is oppressed likes having their oppression explained to them by their oppressor. For the most part, oppressed groups just need to be listened to. If you disagree with an oppressed group, that's fine, of course. Just don't expect harmony and good business with them in the future if you do so publicly.
If you're going for the FS1, opinion/debate angle, I get that. But, if you're doing that, go in head first, don't half-step by not calling out pros by name.
I actually suspect the opposite is true - I suspect that you ARE working in good faith, that you DO want as many folks under the disc golf umbrella as possible, that you DON'T want to turn anyone off. But for some reason, you don't get that by arguing publicly against them, you're turning off FPOs and their fans. Watch and listen closer to Terry Miller, he gets it.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
Bummer.
"The real gender-equality struggles in the US in 2017?"
Go on... Tell us more...
Lol, c'mon man. You don't see the irony here? You seriously don't understand why the FPO players you've slagged for voicing ideas you disagree with haven't reached out to you? Really?
Why WOULD they reach out? Given all that you've stated already about THEIR ideas, why would they think that reaching out to you would accomplish anything other than a fraught argument finishing at a dead end? Your ideas and policies are clearly stated and you seem firmly entrenched - why would an FPO player think that you would at all be receptive to hearing, again, any of the ideas you've already argued so strongly against?
I really don't get your line here, man. You're in the sports media business, right? You're trying to cast a wider net, right? You might harbor private beefs, frustrations, disagreements with certain prominent pros but where's the upside in taking those public and risking turning off them or their fans?
Forgetting the relative merits of an oppressed group's arguments for a moment, no group that is oppressed likes having their oppression explained to them by their oppressor. For the most part, oppressed groups just need to be listened to. If you disagree with an oppressed group, that's fine, of course. Just don't expect harmony and good business with them in the future if you do so publicly.
If you're going for the FS1, opinion/debate angle, I get that. But, if you're doing that, go in head first, don't half-step by not calling out pros by name.
I actually suspect the opposite is true - I suspect that you ARE working in good faith, that you DO want as many folks under the disc golf umbrella as possible, that you DON'T want to turn anyone off. But for some reason, you don't get that by arguing publicly against them, you're turning off FPOs and their fans. Watch and listen closer to Terry Miller, he gets it.
Wait. Did you just suggest that Jamie is oppressing women? Jamie Thomas, videographer, oppressor of women. Usually I look for pornography in such things.
While I agree, selling to the public requires walking softly, even when you're being abused. That doesn't mean that some of Jamie's points aren't valid.
Ah yes, it was only a few short weeks ago that everyone here was going on about how we all need to man up and support the women's game. That if we didn't it's because we're sexist. Apparently it isn't just Jamie who's oppressing women, it's all those posters who were too sexist to go on line and watch the videos. On the other hand I'm sure they're all bagging a Starfire, right?
You may not like Jamie's tone. But he stepped up. He covered the rounds. Let us know when the open minded non-oppressing supporters of women give it a view, despite Jamie, and for the greater good of growing the women's game.
Royalhghnss
Double Eagle Member
For round 2 it was actually Cory who noticed. He was a card ahead and remembered Rick missing some putts that were marked as birdies on live scoring. He had 2 pars marked as birdies, and 1 birdie marked as a par.
For round 2 there were actually 3 scoring errors on his card. (see above). If I'm Rick, I'm keeping my own scorecard in addition to the official one for the rest of my pro days. Insert George bush fool me once/twice quote here.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
BTB, that real gender thing Jamie's referring to...
Women's March on Washington, day after inauguration. Two million women round the world!
Day without Women, this week. Wore my red shirt!
Attempts by the current administration to kill Planned Parenthood, the biggest source of women's healthcare in the US and the only one serving most women.
I could go on but frankly, I think Jamie got this one correct. Those issues are way more important than women in disc golf.
Women's March on Washington, day after inauguration. Two million women round the world!
Day without Women, this week. Wore my red shirt!
Attempts by the current administration to kill Planned Parenthood, the biggest source of women's healthcare in the US and the only one serving most women.
I could go on but frankly, I think Jamie got this one correct. Those issues are way more important than women in disc golf.
