Two Divisions or Multiple Divisions

[JHBlader86]

I'm in a pretty good debate on Facebook with some friends of mine who believe there should simply be two divisions; Pro and Am, plus age protected and Jrs. Basically, no Novice, Rec, or Intermediate, just Ams. I'm the only one who argues for multiple divisions. Curious to know what the DGR communities thoughts are on this topic.

 

[garublador1]

Two divisions would solve sandbagging. I like the two division system but I also don't think people should be rewarded for being inferior golfers. I think that multiple divisions works better for league type play, though.

I used to play MT:G tournaments and there were no divisions. Little kids and crappy players still showed up every time knowing they'd get stomped but surprisingly enough they still had fun. It comes as a surprise to a lot of disc golfers for some reason, but sometimes people just like to go to those events to see how they stack up against others in a fun environment. Even if you already know who "cashing" players are going in you can still have a lot of fun and learn a lot.

Granted those tournaments are probably less expensive to put on so it's a lot easier to get away with not charging a lot, but they also did it with minimal to no sponsorship.

 

[jdggna]

It wouldn't be terrible.

It would be still be fun for me, and I'd still play, but I know I'd get pretty tired of "donating" my entry fees to the advanced players in my area until I can compete with them a little more regularly instead of just when I'm having a really good day. I also see rec players not being as likely to play if they have to pay the same fee as the adv/int crowd. I think it would still work best if adv/int were combined into a single group and rec still had they're own division. I like what they have now though. True, baggers can be an issue, but those baggers would still be in the beating the same people if it was combined, so I don't see any real benefit other than people in the rec/int divisions not having anywhere near as good of chance to win anything.

 

[JHBlader86]

I dont think it would eliminate bagging. No one is required to go pro so if John Doe non-member wants to win a basket and knows he can by playing in the Am field then he will do it.

 

[garublador1]

I dont think it would eliminate bagging. No one is required to go pro so if John Doe non-member wants to win a basket and knows he can by playing in the Am field then he will do it.

I was assuming no ratings cap like the way advanced is right now. If there's no rating cap then you literally can't sandbag.

 

[garublador1]

It wouldn't be terrible.

It would be still be fun for me, and I'd still play, but I know I'd get pretty tired of "donating" my entry fees to the advanced players in my area until I can compete with them a little more regularly instead of just when I'm having a really good day. I also see rec players not being as likely to play if they have to pay the same fee as the adv/int crowd. I think it would still work best if adv/int were combined into a single group and rec still had they're own division. I like what they have now though. True, baggers can be an issue, but those baggers would still be in the beating the same people if it was combined, so I don't see any real benefit other than people in the rec/int divisions not having anywhere near as good of chance to win anything.

It would require a philosophy change among tournament disc golfers. You wouldn't be rewarded for being an inferior player. I'd assume that the overall price to play would go down because a lot fewer prizes are given out. IMO, prizes other than trophies shouldn't be given to anyone in any AM division anyway. You want to win something you gotta be a pro.

Out of curiosity, what other sports/games use the same model as disc golf? Any organized sport/game I've been in has either been age protected (16 and under volleyball), a league with minimal prizes (some league volleyball, league bowling) or just one division (M:TG). Does ball golf use the same format for its tournaments?

 

[Beable]

Two divisions would solve sandbagging. I like the two division system but I also don't think people should be rewarded for being inferior golfers. I think that multiple divisions works better for league type play, though.

I used to play MT:G tournaments and there were no divisions. Little kids and crappy players still showed up every time knowing they'd get stomped but surprisingly enough they still had fun. It comes as a surprise to a lot of disc golfers for some reason, but sometimes people just like to go to those events to see how they stack up against others in a fun environment. Even if you already know who "cashing" players are going in you can still have a lot of fun and learn a lot.

Granted those tournaments are probably less expensive to put on so it's a lot easier to get away with not charging a lot, but they also did it with minimal to no sponsorship.

I challenge your assumption that having different divisions is "rewarding people for being inferior golfers". Entering a division is kind of like laying a bet. You're saying that you think you have enough skill or moxie or whatever to beat others near your skill level. If you know that you have zero chance of placing in the top spots, you're less likely to make that bet.

So I guess what I'm saying is, sure, have less divisions. But then play for a trophy or something. People aren't going to want to throw money away to fund people who are Advanced level players.

 

[keltik1]

I think they should just shrink it to just INT, AM and Pro (with age protected divisions) for PDGA sanctioned events. It would cut out a lot of the pootin in church (sandbagging).

I also agree that they should only give trophies (discs included) for AMs. I like lower entry fees.

to whoever asked about ball golf: most tournaments are run by the local country clubs. IIRC usually the players are ranked/split by handicap ranges (flights). they usually have an overall champion and flight winners. they also usually have a running Calcutta too (it's an auction where you bid on a player/card). I think this is how most club based tourneys/monthlies should be run. this can be accomplished by the current divisional system to an extent. also with PGA sanctioned events you have to qualify to play or be invited. and AMs are not allowed to join the PGA. this is something I think the PDGA should do.

most country clubs require players to turn in their cards at the end of the round (and pay their greens fees) to calculate scoring averages and handicap. since DG is usually self reported scoring and our rankings are only tabulated at PDGA events, it's a bit harder to truly calculate our rank. I doubt that our current system will go anywhere anytime soon.

my 2¢: we need to get organized Amateur competition out of the hands of the PDGA.

 

[JHBlader86]

.

my 2¢: we need to get organized Amateur competition out of the hands of the PDGA.

If a group had the time and resources to start an amateur organization I'd sign up immediately.

 

[Widdershins]

I'm in a pretty good debate on Facebook with some friends of mine who believe there should simply be two divisions; Pro and Am, plus age protected and Jrs. Basically, no Novice, Rec, or Intermediate, just Ams. I'm the only one who argues for multiple divisions. Curious to know what the DGR communities thoughts are on this topic.

It is too late to re-write the history of our sport and alter the expectations of our players. We have multiple divisions and merchandise payouts for Amateurs because the players like it that way. Tournament Directors want to please their players so they continue to do things that way.

I played racquetball tournaments before I found disc golf. In racquetball, the entry fee would usually about $50 to $75. For this you would get a tee shirt and the chance to play in your division until you lost (single elimination format) . If you won your division you would get a trophy. If you happened to get smoked in your first round pairing, your match might last about 15 minutes. So sometimes your tournament was over and you really didn't break a sweat. We called this the $50 Tee Shirt Award. This format worked for that sport and I don't recall hearing any complaints about the expense and payouts.

The PDGA is an organization of tournament players and tournament directors. The PDGA has no monopoly over Disc Golf. Anyone can run a tournament with any rules or formats they wish. Anyone can start a competing organization and several exist (regionally). For anyone who hates the PDGA, ok, go do it your way. More power to ya.

 

[garublador1]

It is too late to re-write the history of our sport and alter the expectations of our players. We have multiple divisions and merchandise payouts for Amateurs because the players like it that way. Tournament Directors want to please their players so they continue to do things that way.

I played racquetball tournaments before I found disc golf. In racquetball, the entry fee would usually about $50 to $75. For this you would get a tee shirt and the chance to play in your division until you lost (single elimination format) . If you won your division you would get a trophy. If you happened to get smoked in your first round pairing, your match might last about 15 minutes. So sometimes your tournament was over and you really didn't break a sweat. We called this the $50 Tee Shirt Award. This format worked for that sport and I don't recall hearing any complaints about the expense and payouts.

This is another good example. It's assumed that people won't show up for tournaments if they're run any differently than they are now, but other sports and games have shown that just isn't true. The only reason it's done is history. Granted that history has built a culture of people believing they deserve prizes for being inferior golfers that that will be difficult to overcome, but that doesn't change the fact that other organizations have had as much, an many times way more success at running events as the PDGA.

I challenge your assumption that having different divisions is "rewarding people for being inferior golfers". Entering a division is kind of like laying a bet. You're saying that you think you have enough skill or moxie or whatever to beat others near your skill level. If you know that you have zero chance of placing in the top spots, you're less likely to make that bet.

So someone who's rating falls into the top of the intermediate division deserves a better chance of winning that someone who scores, on average, 1 stroke per round better than him? That's not an assumption, that's how divisions work. The assumption that people won't come out to play unless they think they'll be rewarded for being an inferior player is the one I'm saying is incorrect. I've personally experienced this in volleyball and M:TG and Mark has cited racquetball. All of those sports/games are more popular than DG and people pay for the chance to win a lot less. One of them is even a lot newer than disc golf.

 

[Cgkdisc]

You assume the PDGA has created and forced a tournament format on TDs and players. It has done no such thing. It simply organizes and structures the various options that TDs and players have shown they prefer over the years. If TDs want to host formats with one or two divisions, they can and have done so. But for some reason not too many others have followed. A membership organization will not last long if it does not support what members seem to want. The maximum popularity a sport can achieve is limited by the number of venues it can be played and how many can play at those venues at one time. There are/were more racquetball, volleyball and apparently M:TG venues. Who's to say those sports might not have become even more popular using the merch driven competition formats that evolved in disc golf?

 

[thatdirtykid]

Concerning non sanctioned events: It bugs me how many events in CO that used to be unsanctioned have been sanctioned in the past few years, because so many people didn't feel unsanctioned events were not worth making it out to.
I have not been a pdga member since 07. I will be in 11, I have been out of the competitive loop long enough, and have nothing against pdga events, I just miss the variety of events.

 

[Ryan C]

I still don't quite follow how having lower divisions rewards player for being inferior golfers. It makes logical sense to me that people are at different skill levels, and thus want to be in different divisions. I have been playing Advanced, rather than Open, this last year, and I wouldn't want the intermediate or rec players to have to play in the same division. Obviously that "donation" would be in my best interest, but I don't see how it could be in theirs.

None of the locals around here that I can think of wins their intermediate division regularly, and none of them really shoot scores that would be very competitive in advanced. And, as far as I know, none of them are intentionally staying "inferior" so that they can get "rewarded."

Basically, I think this board probably represents better than average disc golfers, and so very likely has no problem with a change to a 2 division format. You're either Open, which wouldn't change, or you're Advanced, in which case you'd simply be able to beat more bad players that weren't fortunate enough to have their own division.

 

[garublador1]

You assume the PDGA has created and forced a tournament format on TDs and players. It has done no such thing.

It doesn't directly force TD'd to use all divisions, it has cultivated the culture of inferior players thinking they deserve to win stuff so they demand the multiple division.

Think of it like the dollar coin. The US government has tried to get people to use it a few times in the past because it will save tax payers a lot of money, it will save anyone trying to use a vending machine a headache and will reduce the literal size of our wallets thus making it easier to sit down. However, because people are used to using dollar bills and no one forces them to use the coins it doesn't happen. While they aren't actively stopping people from using the coins, they aren't encouraging it even though the advantages outweigh the disadvantages by a lot. Sitting on your butt and doing nothing in cases like this is just as bad as actively causing harm.

And, as far as I know, none of them are intentionally staying "inferior" so that they can get "rewarded."

Are you really completely unfamiliar with the concept of sandbagging? Sandbaggers are people who take advantage of the fact that the system is set up to reward people for being inferior players. It doesn't have to be intentional. You can just flat out suck, but you don't deserve a better shot at a prize because of it.

If you suck and want to play with people of your own skill level, play local leagues. That's what they're for. Tournaments are for people who want to compete to be the best, not the OKest.

FWIW, I'm at best an intermediate player. I don't think I deserve prizes more than someone who's better than me, but not good enough to do well in Advanced. They deserve prizes more than me for being better a better player than me.

 

[jdggna]

I see what you mean garu...I agree with you to an extent. I'm an average int player myself. I'm going to start playing more advanced. I'd prefer to set my goals to where they need to be now instead of only seeing the top of my division until I start winning int. Like I said, I'll still play even if I'm just donating money because I want to compete and get better, not just win. I'm just not sure that enough of the players have that mentality now.

With one big field the payouts would be bigger and pay down farther, so I feel like people who like to win would still see some benefit from that kind of set up. I feel like this is what a lot of people don't understand. Say you typically have 15 rec, 15 int, and 15 adv, and each person is playing in the lowest allowed field based on his rating. The top five from each division would get paid...in one big field the top 15 would get paid, and the winning purses would be a lot bigger. Sure the rec players would have a much tougher time, but I think I'm starting to agree with garu...why should they deserve to win something if they didn't actually win? And it's not like they can't win...the winning scores of the Ames Fright Flight the year were all the same for int, adv, and open.

 

[JHBlader86]

The issue of people sandbagging really only applies to non-members. Players cant sandbag for too long because eventually their rating will go up and force them to move to a higher division. I find the sandbagging argument the weakest link in the case for just two divisions.

 

[Cgkdisc]

What other individual sports only have one or two divisions? Can't think of any. And I don't think there are too many sports if any growing as fast as disc golf.

 

[JR]

What other individual sports only have one or two divisions? Can't think of any. And I don't think there are too many sports if any growing as fast as disc golf.

Great points. I've been to a competition where a sub 700 player played and other ams were throwing over 950 rated rounds. With open players top achieving well over 1000 rated rounds at the same time. >Timetables can change and the field can cluster up in one part of the course. I'm not sure if anyone plays better after needing to wait for their turn. So the players of the same division that weren't in line gained over the ones stuck in the traffic jam. Unfair. This is to my understanding a problem only in the first round if the groups are mixed.

Naturally the organizers should account for the rating differences in the group placements but so far that hasn't worked in some of the competitions i've been to. That is why it would make sense to separate differently skilled players in more than two divisions. Who wants to shoot in the dark or rush to play the last holes even in dusk? So it's not just division structure that can be manipulated to keep the play progressing for everyone. Having the slowest players start well ahead of the open people and more advanced ams does help too.

Then there's the learning curve and fun factor. I favor better players showing example to newer players so everyone should take their lumps and sometimes be placed among lesser skilled players for teaching duty. It may not be fun for the better player not to be challenged or pushed by the group you're in or for the other players not standing a chance against the better player. I think that most like the benefit of watching a better player for a round from close distance. So what are the goals one strives for determines whether anything should be changed or not. I'm content with the way things are now because i don't see enough benefits from changing system. Application of the system differently may be enough to satisfy smoother running event and non stop play needs.

 

[garublador1]

The issue of people sandbagging really only applies to non-members. Players cant sandbag for too long because eventually their rating will go up and force them to move to a higher division. I find the sandbagging argument the weakest link in the case for just two divisions.

Sandbagging is just an illustration of the concept of getting rewarded for being a worse player.