Need Form check & Analysis please

[sidewinder22]

1. Posture. Looks like you are still in anterior pelvic tilt/spine extended. Apparently people who are into Olympic lifting struggle with this as it's basically the opposite of creating power in lifting motion vs rotational/athletic motion.

2. Swing Sequence. Your sequence looks like how Patrick Cantlay broke his back. In slow motion drill note I'm turned all the way back and stay turned back while shifting forward. You are trying to complete your backswing too late and creating more unnecessary torque on the body with things moving in opposite directions.

Need to setup balanced on your front ankle. You bend your front knee too much and spine leaning back behind your heel. Your quad muscles have got to be burning and could not stand like that for very long. If a barbell with 200lbs was placed on your shoulders, your knees/hips would collapse easily.

Note how my CoG is stacked right over my ankle and posture stacks up wrapped around the ankle axis with a forward spine tilt that allows my shoulder to swing back and forth unimpeded and wide out from the ankle axis. I'm in a much more quad relaxed(but glutes engaged) and athletic position and could continue standing for long time even if barbell with 200lbs was placed on my shoulders. I'm also in this position landing in swivel stairs or jump or throwing One Leg Drill.

Don't worry about heel pivot especially when barefoot. If you are balanced on your foot you will pivot automatically if you generated enough momentum to pull you into it.

Note how your rear heel spins out further away from target/body, while my rear heel gets pulled inward/targetward underneath my body. It looks like you are really trying to force spinning your hips to the target, instead of letting it happen/unwind with gravity.

There is no real need for slow motion.

Not sure what you are doing with the rear arm move and it's too late after hips moved forward. Try keeping arm bent and elbow the hips forward going into the plant. It doesn't need to be an aggressive sudden move, should be more subtle relaxed and fluid. The way you took your arm back I thought you were going to do the full swim move going over your head, but instead you reversed back which is a much harder motion to do once you have gone that far.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90#t=9m40s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HssJQD1rRo&t=4m

You are going into anterior pelvic tilt or S-posture sticking your butt out and balance/CoG too far over your rear toes, instead of keeping your core engaged tucking navel toward belt buckle and shifting your balance/CoG back toward rear heel to press the butt back against the wall.

 

[SmileyBoy]

Thank you for the response. I appreciate your efforts and I must show gratitude for the efforts you have put in.

Posture. Looks like you are still in anterior pelvic tilt/spine extended. Apparently people who are into Olympic lifting struggle with this as it's basically the opposite of creating power in lifting motion vs rotational/athletic motion.

To fix anterior pelvic tilt, I need to engage my core? (abs & glutes)

My core feels very tensed when abs & glutes are engaged from starting position until disc has left the hand and I am staying upright safely to let myself relax.

If it is okay for core to be tensed up from start to finish, then I'll practice it but if I have to tense my core instead when reachbacking then I'll practice that.

Currently I won't be able to play disc golf for almost a month due to the injury on my right lower-back. It's a bad injury and I don't want to prolong the healing any further. It's rehab time, gym and yoga while lurking around in this forum finding out more information about how to fix anterior pelvic tilt if engaging the core won't fix it.

Please let me know your thoughts.

 

[SmileyBoy]

I was checking out my anterior pelvic tilt in front of the mirror and engaging my abs & glutes did not get rid of the tilt overall. It got less worse but it's still there and my shoulders go forward with core engaged.

Seems like the problem is weak abs and glute muscles and I need to stretch hip flexors. Just watched the Athlean X video regards anterior pelvic tilt which I have also when normally standing upright. Fixing posture is harder than I thought.

Even though I go to gym 4 times per week, bench press max 60 kg
Squat max 90 kg
Deadlift max 90 kg
Romanian deadlift max 40 kg

In bench press, squat, deadlift and Romanian deadlift, I do anterior pelvic tilt to keep my back straight and not round my back.



Edit: I do office work 8 hours per day :/

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, all that weight training you are doing is programming your body to move in a non-athletic way. It is going to be hard and take months of practice to change those motor patterns.

1. Something I just noticed in your slow motion swing is that you are popping/fully extending your front knee instead of keeping it slightly bent and rotating into the femur.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuvujcEMLxs#t=1m25s

2. One thing that really helped me coming back from spine injury was keeping my trail hand on my trail thigh so the rear side is firmed up to leverage from. The hand can slide up/down the thigh during the backswing/forward swing. Your rear arm/elbow is way out behind your body.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90&t=525s

3. You need some side bend in the swing to coil the core. Your front shoulder is way high instead of hanging down under trail shoulder - Dingle Arm.

 

[SmileyBoy]

Yeah, all that weight training you are doing is programming your body to move in a non-athletic way. It is going to be hard and take months of practice to change those motor patterns.

My friend is more knowledge than me in what kind of exercises to do for any kind of training like whether I want to get strong or fast or flexible. He will create a PDF containing exercises and how many to do them each week for 5 days.

My questions are:
1) Should I stop doing weight training?
2) Should I ask my friend to change the workout program to give me exercises only for disc golf?
3) Should I ask my friend to give me a list of exercises to move in athletic way?
4) Should I mention to him that the weight training I'm doing is causing me to have bad posture in disc golf?
5) Should I keep doing weight training as I've always been doing but also learn to move in athletic way? It is going to cause a conflict of trying to change the motor patterns and use another pattern for weight training. Thoughts?
6) Do you have any recommendations in regards of what exercises to do, to move in athletic way?

 

[sidewinder22]

I would say yes to some degree to all that. Look into movement training like Weck Method.

 

[Brychanus]

smileyboy, fwiw as a long time weightlifter I have gradually replaced all of my old routine with functional exercises, resistance bands, and flexibility training and my body and game could not be happier. I move better and more easily in general, I'm fresher and warm up faster when I want to throw, my posture is easier to relax into DG mode, and my joints are less taxed. I'm also gradually feeling more coordinated as I move my big body around. Plus, everything I was warned about getting closer to middle aged is true, and these changes are healthy from a longevity perspective.

I had bumped into this Weck one on core lunges and thought it was interesting and started trying it out. He likes to integrate using ground forces and concepts like bracing in a lot of the movements. I'm always wary of someone trying to sell a product, but from a movement perspective this is another thing I'd wish I'd taken more seriously earlier. Curious what you or others think since I'm still enjoying breaking my old routine and learning a lot. Some of the club drills look fun too so I'll tinker with those.

 

[SmileyBoy]

smileyboy, fwiw as a long time weightlifter I have gradually replaced all of my old routine with functional exercises, resistance bands, and flexibility training and my body and game could not be happier. I move better and more easily in general, I'm fresher and warm up faster when I want to throw, my posture is easier to relax into DG mode, and my joints are less taxed. I'm also gradually feeling more coordinated as I move my big body around. Plus, everything I was warned about getting closer to middle aged is true, and these changes are healthy from a longevity perspective.

I had bumped into this Weck one on core lunges and thought it was interesting and started trying it out. He likes to integrate using ground forces and concepts like bracing in a lot of the movements. I'm always wary of someone trying to sell a product, but from a movement perspective this is another thing I'd wish I'd taken more seriously earlier. Curious what you or others think since I'm still enjoying breaking my old routine and learning a lot. Some of the club drills look fun too so I'll tinker with those.

Hey, long time no see

My opinion is that I'm not interested in weck. It looks like just explosive training but it was named "weck" instead of explosive training.

I myself do weight training 4 times per week and yoga every day. I started doing yoga 3 weeks ago by watching a follow along video



Give it a try and see if you will survive 20 minutes

 

[Brychanus]

Hey, long time no see

My opinion is that I'm not interested in weck. It looks like just explosive training but it was named "weck" instead of explosive training.

I myself do weight training 4 times per week and yoga every day. I started doing yoga 3 weeks ago by watching a follow along video



Give it a try and see if you will survive 20 minutes ��

Howdy!

My wife introduced me to a couple stretch series like that one and I really like doing it the days I do more core/leg centered workouts & the night before I throw. People definitely underestimate a good yoga routine & I'm usually sweating at the end of that lol

Weck is part branding for sure. My intent there was to suggest picking/looking for some functional movements that get more CoG/compound movement than most traditional lifts in there, which might be why SW mentioned Weck. So even if you don't like the more "explosive" ones, that video came to mind more from the compound movement & CoG & shifting perspective.

I'm honestly not sure how much I've gotten/am getting out of more explosive moves like plyos, which I do less of now. I think it did initially help me shore up some weak areas & get more comfortable moving my body around in new ways and more aware of it all. But I've changed it up again to be more DG-specific since that's my main thing.

I suspect that as long as you're loading up a chain and shifting with resistance against the ground and doing stuff that breaks some of the traditional weightlifter postures it can help.

 

[Brychanus]

Btw, I just finished trying a few functional moves. If you ignore what I think smiley means by "explosive," the first move Weck shown in the vid above (moving kind of in backhand direction and braced into the rear leg in the backswing) is mechanically very similar to Wiggins standstill here. I was actually surprised at how well it isolates the chain and gets it nice and compact moving in that direction, including the off arm action. It also helped me find a bit better load and leverage off my drive leg and a faster drop/shift almost right away, and it seemed to tighten up my coil against the rear leg. Smoothing that out into the throw seems like a very close correlation. So I'd want to verify moves on a case by case basis but that one seems promising.

I assume the second one is the equivalent feeling in the FH direction, but my kinetics are much less developed moving that way, perhaps SW could confirm. Keep in mind I have no particular investment in Weck so I'm not trying to "sell" you other than to point out it might be worth a tinker

 

[sidewinder22]

Head over foot coiling/locomotion/swimming:

 

[SmileyBoy]

What about now?



I'd like to mention few things I focused on:
1) Brace'ing. I was imagining myself brake'ing hard with my plant leg as if I were in a car and about to hit another hard.
2) Core engaged the whole time
3) Reach out not behind me.
4) Off-arm elbow not going behind me

I'd like to comment that my form which I took a good look at, looks ****ed up. Probably because I was filming myself indoors and did not have lots of space to spread my wings apart and be more confident in doing the motions.

If this video sucks and is a waste of time, I'll create a new one tomorrow anyway with a disc in hand out in a field.

 

[SmileyBoy]

I'll upload new video

 

[SmileyBoy]

1. Posture. Looks like you are still in anterior pelvic tilt/spine extended. Apparently people who are into Olympic lifting struggle with this as it's basically the opposite of creating power in lifting motion vs rotational/athletic motion.

2. Swing Sequence. Your sequence looks like how Patrick Cantlay broke his back. In slow motion drill note I'm turned all the way back and stay turned back while shifting forward. You are trying to complete your backswing too late and creating more unnecessary torque on the body with things moving in opposite directions.

0:00 Slow motion (Side view)
0:13 Fast motion (Side view)
0:18 Fast motion (Behind view)
0:24 Slow motion (Behind view)



What do you think? Is the swing and posture fixed? If so, what's next to fix?

 

[Brychanus]

What do you think? Is the swing and posture fixed?

No.

Here's a wall-o-text intervention.

I'm trying to help my fellow lifters rehabilitate because I know firsthand how frustrating and difficult it is. Part of the problem is missing or denying a few fundamental truths about motor learning and perception. I'm going to be pretty blunt about it playing the "been there, done that" older lifter card again, basically backing up what SW is saying. The poor guy has been through a lot getting through to me, and my body went through a lot while not getting it right. Your lifter body understand how to lift for power in the power stance, but not how to swing for power in the golf stance.

1. Motor learning: I know you really don't want to hear this, but I'm not a gambling man and I can still guarantee you that you won't fix this in one day. Think of drills as a treatment or catchup program for your body. It's going to take many doses over time. You have had thousands of doses of lifting for power, and you are still adding more. You have almost no doses (or maybe exactly zero) of swinging for power in the correct golf stance. It would probably take a motor learning equivalent of a miracle to suddenly get it right each time. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I haven't found a single case of spontaneous recovery in the form critiques. And yes, I've gone looking for it.

I can put it in lifter terms: would you expect your 10-rep bench press to go from 150 lbs. to 400 lbs. in one day? That's about the size of the form change we're talking about even though we're not talking about muscular strength.


2. Perception: I've started to believe that it's really hard to even see what we're talking about unless you've already changed your power stance significantly enough to consistently feel the difference. It's hard to see this "big picture" when you haven't either looked at tons of mechanical form reviews or done it yourself. So I'll show you a couple different comparisons.



You might see your rear leg vs. Gibson and think "oh, I need to drop my rear leg or push my rear knee inside. That might fix my posture." No - your rear leg will drop like that because you're in good posture. You are still extending and tipping off of it - because you are moving in the power stance. The leg is just part of that overall way of moving.

Here's another player throwing power or horse stance vs. Tamm throwing in "golf stance." Tamm is properly in the golf stance and "Riding the Bull" and coiling up like Double Dragon.

I recommend you do & post Double Dragon. You need to get your head swinging over your feet and in a very different sequence and balance pattern with your whole body than you are now. I think in general the more often you are doing that move when warming up the better (after you get it critiqued here).

One advantage SW had before he did DG was a lot of swimming. DD basically helps you gain (1) the swim-like, infinite rhythm of the body moving, (2) the freewheeling swing stretched and coiled, and (3) the Pratt Drill-like golf stance balance working with gravity that your lifter body really needs to learn when you're doing it right.

I'm also curious if you do Swivel Stairs power-stanced or with other posture issues like I used to.

One of the best things SW told me to do was to "hug" and walk around with a cylindrical trashcan. I also had to attack posture hard with the Door Frame Drills.

You almost certainly have to attack it head on. There's no shortcut. Double Dragon is a top-tier training move.

 

[SmileyBoy]

Dang..

Not good news..

Double dragon is a move where I use my rear arm actively by thinking about it and doing the counter rotation movement?

Or what's double dragon exactly?

 

[Brychanus]

Dang..

Not good news..

Lol I feel those faces.

But seriously, there's good news. Do & post maybe DD and Swivel Stairs. They're things that don't take much time to do but their teaching builds up over time. But it's critical to get those moves right for them to pay off.

 

[SmileyBoy]

Lol I feel those faces.

But seriously, there's good news. Do & post maybe DD and Swivel Stairs. They're things that don't take much time to do but their teaching builds up over time. But it's critical to get those moves right for them to pay off.

I'll check them out. I'll figure out how to get the good angle for them without tripod for now

 

[SmileyBoy]

Image from double dragon seabas video

His plant leg is not on the line with his rear leg toe or offset like Simon's. Does that mean I can stride forward and forget about the line?

I've been taught all the time when I started with form work, YouTube is full of it that rear toe and plant leg heel must be on the same line or offset more.


If I can do like Seabas does then hell yeah. Please confirm

 

[SmileyBoy]

I don't understand the meaning behind dragon power drill. I'm confused how to incorporate into my throw. I'll show a video anyways