2015 Pro Worlds

[sidewinder22]

Im more surprised that they only play deer lakes once...moraine is definitely a great course. I liked deer lakes better than moraine though...too many low ceiling holes at moraine IMO. With the exception of 1 and 14 deer lakes has better fairways...

Morraine is a Gold level course while Deer Lakes and Knob Hill are Blue level courses. Morraine might be low ceiling for most mortals, but I think you are going to see some high lines during Worlds that you didn't know existed.

 

[joshmo65]

Draft Schedule

Mens open doesnt play knob! That course is a great separator and so different from the others

I am genuinely shocked that open is not playing Knob blues. I think I would rather see them play Knob than Deer Lakes. That course would definitely be a separator in scores.

Also, I'm kind of expecting to hear some complaining that the women don't get to play Moraine golds.

Im more surprised that they only play deer lakes once...moraine is definitely a great course. I liked deer lakes better than moraine though...too many low ceiling holes at moraine IMO. With the exception of 1 and 14 deer lakes has better fairways...

Morraine is a Gold level course while Deer Lakes and Knob Hill are Blue level courses. Morraine might be low ceiling for most mortals, but I think you are going to see some high lines during Worlds that you didn't know existed.

Like SW said, Deer Lakes is only a blue level course, so I am fine with the pros only playing one round there. I would expect all of the leaders to come in at least 10 under which I don't really care for. The leaders at Moraine will be closer to 6 under.

This is the surprising thing to me as to why they are using Deer Lakes instead of Knob. Knob blues are bar far the hardest blues in Pittsburgh and is more spectator friendly than Deer Lakes. Kinda headscratching to me.

While I agree that Moraine has a lot of high lines, I know there was quite a bit of thought into the tee placements to try to take out those high lines. Hole 6 is the obvious one where they will all go over the top that mortals have no chance of.

 

[TalbotTrojan]

I did the Pro and Am schedules working with the TDs so I knew they were coming.

Why only 5 rounds for the Pros before the Semi cut? Was pretty sure it has been 6 rounds in past years much like the Ams still is.

 

[Rol6566]

I am genuinely shocked that open is not playing Knob blues. I think I would rather see them play Knob than Deer Lakes. That course would definitely be a separator in scores.

Also, I'm kind of expecting to hear some complaining that the women don't get to play Moraine golds.





Like SW said, Deer Lakes is only a blue level course, so I am fine with the pros only playing one round there. I would expect all of the leaders to come in at least 10 under which I don't really care for. The leaders at Moraine will be closer to 6 under.

This is the surprising thing to me as to why they are using Deer Lakes instead of Knob. Knob blues are bar far the hardest blues in Pittsburgh and is more spectator friendly than Deer Lakes. Kinda headscratching to me.

While I agree that Moraine has a lot of high lines, I know there was quite a bit of thought into the tee placements to try to take out those high lines. Hole 6 is the obvious one where they will all go over the top that mortals have no chance of.

I expect the pros to easily destroy DL like they did at the PFDO a couple years ago. Feldberg shooting a -14 (52) and a couple in the 54-56 range. I agree that Open should play knob since its a completely different style of course, cant just throw far to score well there, have to hit some tight lines and use every shot in your bag.

But its set now so nothing we can do to change that.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Only 5 prelim rounds this year before semis versus the usual 6. Limited due to just 4 courses and desire to host 432 players (6 x 72 player pools). With 2 rounds per day times 4 courses over 4 days equals 32 round slots available. 32 rounds divided by 6 pools means 5 rounds per pool and two rounds with no play.

 

[JC17393]

I would think playing 5 rounds (well, 4 out of 5 rounds) on true Gold level courses trumps the idea of playing 6 rounds on lesser caliber courses. Isn't the complaint about Pro Worlds every year that the courses for the Open division are "too easy"? And the big reason for that is time constraints. Fewer rounds + fewer time constraints = longer more skill appropriate courses.

 

[vslaugh]

I think it would be much more surprising if the Men's Open division were to skip playing the #18 course in the world with a ~8500' Par 66 layout and instead played a 20+ year-old retrofitted Par 3 course. I like Knob Hill a lot, but Deer Lakes is a much better showcase course for our sport.

Plus, Deer Lakes blue tees are much closer to gold-level than blue level. At the 2011 NT, a Par 66 (in perfect weather) was 978 rated. With the upgrades to make the Hole 8 and Hole 12 greens more difficult, I'm guessing Deer Lakes blues will play ~985 rated.

 

[TalbotTrojan]

Only 5 prelim rounds this year before semis versus the usual 6. Limited due to just 4 courses and desire to host 432 players (6 x 72 player pools). With 2 rounds per day times 4 courses over 4 days equals 32 round slots available. 32 rounds divided by 6 pools means 5 rounds per pool and two rounds with no play.

Makes sense I guess. Almost doesn't seem like Worlds with one fewer round though.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Some top pros have been lobbying for just 4 total rounds (includes semis) on just two courses plus a Final 9.

 

[JC17393]

Worlds used to be eight rounds (2 per day) plus semis and final 9. In recent years, it's been 6 round (or 108 total holes) plus semis and final 9.

The trend seems to be moving toward quality over quantity.

 

[mashnut]

Worlds used to be eight rounds (2 per day) plus semis and final 9. In recent years, it's been 6 round (or 108 total holes) plus semis and final 9.

The trend seems to be moving toward quality over quantity.

Lots of rounds on different courses makes sense for an am worlds, it's more of a festival atmosphere and ams are often excited to play more courses and have more chances to play with different people. For the pros it makes more sense to play multiple rounds on the best courses and focus on the layouts that offer the best scoring spreads and tests of skill for the gold and super gold level players.

 

[Rol6566]

I think it would be much more surprising if the Men's Open division were to skip playing the #18 course in the world with a ~8500' Par 66 layout and instead played a 20+ year-old retrofitted Par 3 course. I like Knob Hill a lot, but Deer Lakes is a much better showcase course for our sport.

Plus, Deer Lakes blue tees are much closer to gold-level than blue level. At the 2011 NT, a Par 66 (in perfect weather) was 978 rated. With the upgrades to make the Hole 8 and Hole 12 greens more difficult, I'm guessing Deer Lakes blues will play ~985 rated.

Maybe one less round at either SRU or Moraine and fit in a knob blue. I agree that it is a blue course, but its so much different than the other courses they will be playing. Thats the reason they always play it in the PFDO.

 

[BionicRib]

Morraine is a Gold level course while Deer Lakes and Knob Hill are Blue level courses. Morraine might be low ceiling for most mortals, but I think you are going to see some high lines during Worlds that you didn't know existed.

I'm sure that's true considering I've played deer lakes twice and moraine once. Have their always been gold tees at moraine? I thought I played the longest tees there and I swore deer lakes was a tougher course....seemed like moraine didn't have very many two shot holes compared to deer lakes

 

[Rol6566]

Morraine is a Gold level course while Deer Lakes and Knob Hill are Blue level courses. Morraine might be low ceiling for most mortals, but I think you are going to see some high lines during Worlds that you didn't know existed.

There are definitely some high lines that I never knew existed until I saw Avery play Moraine for the first time. I cant wait to see what Simon does...

 

[joshmo65]

I'm sure that's true considering I've played deer lakes twice and moraine once. Have their always been gold tees at moraine? I thought I played the longest tees there and I swore deer lakes was a tougher course....seemed like moraine didn't have very many two shot holes compared to deer lakes

As far as I know, Moraine has always had gold tees and is definitely a harder course. When the NT came through in 2011, SSA was 63 (-3) at Deer Lakes and 66.5 (+0.5) at Moraine.

Moraine has 8 par 4s and 2 par 5s and Deer Lakes has 6 par 4s and 3 par 5s, so Moraine actually has more multi-shot holes

 

[BionicRib]

Deer lakes and moraine are roughly the same distance according to dgcr. If deer lakes has less par 4s and one more par 5 than moraine I'd be curious to hear what exactly makes moraine gold level? Tighter fairways? Elevation changes? Unless my math is wrong those distance put both courses on the tweener range between blue and gold.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Moraine has Gold tees and Deer Lakes longest are Blues.

 

[notroman]

I played Moraine gold tees back in 2009 so yeah they've had them for a while. I like Deer Lakes blue tees more. There are more "signature" holes at Deer Lakes in my opinion. Very fun.

 

[joshmo65]

Deer lakes and moraine are roughly the same distance according to dgcr. If deer lakes has less par 4s and one more par 5 than moraine I'd be curious to hear what exactly makes moraine gold level? Tighter fairways? Elevation changes? Unless my math is wrong those distance put both courses on the tweener range between blue and gold.

I'm trying to think of exactly what makes Moraine that 2 strokes higher SSA and can't really put my finger on it. It is just harder. I think there are more strategically placed trees and tees compared to Deer Lakes. I also think that the rough is a little rougher at Moraine. Neither course features a lot of OB, so the scores aren't inflated that way.

Moraine is definitely a gold level course. Par always comes in at at least 1000 in pro tournament setup while Deer Lakes is a little behind.

Ratings for par at the Ironwood open at Moraine the last 5 years has been rated as follows:
2014 - 1006
2013 - 1008
2012 - 1006
2011 - 1014
2010 - 1010

The weather is always pretty bad for this tournament early in the year and that is on rubber tee pads that will be replaced with concrete, but there will also be some new harder pins, so I am expecting par to stay similarly rated to past years. Definitely gold level.

 

[Rol6566]

Moraine is one step closer to having concrete on all holes for gold & blue tees. Group of us went out and set a bunch of tees to get ready for pours in the coming weeks

After that is done, we need to build some retaining walls around a couple tees to level them off and have a flat tee area, and then plant some grass and aesthetic stuff and we are getting there!