If you don't want to hit a spectator, then don't throw into the gallery. I'm just glad no one got injured, because that could have been ugly.
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2018 Waco Annual Charity Open DGPT
- Thread starter kyle_vapes24
- Start date
I definitely meant SHOULDN'T and didn't catch it until after the edit time limit. Whoops.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
Until ignoring/not knowing the rules actually costs someone a tournament (which would require enforcement) the situation is not going to improve.
InDaWoodsDiscN419
Par Member
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2017
- Messages
- 245
Agreed, super glad there were no injuries in the crowd, high velocity plastic can be very
dangerous. I personally would not feel safe to throw with a $hit ton of folks lining the fairway
of a hole, I'd most likely whack someone and feel never-ending guilt if anyone was hurt.
lenfantsuave
Bogey Member
So did ccdg end up filming chase card?
Flick Maniac
* Ace Member *
Exactly. That why I tell new players to get a rule book, and always consult it for ruling, no matter what someone tells you. If you cannot find it in the rule book, play a provisional. Easy as that. Or you can google the rules too. Had Perkins typed in "PDGA rules line of play" into google, they would have been set straight in a matter of minutes. It irks me that he took Jerms word for it (again, with Jerm not purposely bending the rules, just misapplying them).
If anything good is to come of these incidents, is that people should become more accustomed to actually reading the rules.
The tourney itself was entertaining as all &/¤%#. 2018 looks crazy good so far.
As unfortunate as it is that no one in the group (not just Perkins but also McBeth and Gurthie) knew enough to or was willing to contradict Jerm, it wasn't just them. Terry Miller in the live commentary was going along with what Jerm was doing...pretty much praising him for his astute use of the rules. So he didn't know the rule correctly either. Not that I expect him to insert himself into the proceedings if he did, but he could at least comment on how he thinks Jerm was wrong if he believed him to be.
It's indicative of the prevailing culture of apathy toward the rules. Either players don't care to know them or understand them properly, or they don't care enough to enforce them properly when they do know the rules. It's not just the elite pros like we see on video. It's a majority of players across the entire competitive spectrum.
All that aside for a second, I agree that the tourney was entertaining to watch. Plenty of great play on an interesting and challenging course. More like Waco, less like Vegas (from a course perspective).
Zanguini
Birdie Member
Did it not in this case? Jerm only won by a stroke in extra play. Stance violation carries a stroke penalty.... Of course that would have meant that nate and jerm play a little differently down the stretch, but taken at face value it makes a difference.
Fair point, but while it was a stance violation, if anyone in the group was going to call him on it, they would have prevented it from happening in the first place. Jerm was deliberate and clear on what he was doing before he made the throw. He made a point of cleaning debris from the spot where thought the lie was (lined up on the mando) and explaning that he was using the mando as the "target". Unless we think one of the other three would be the type to let him make an illegal throw just to call him on it, if they were aware what he was doing was incorrect, they'd have spoken up before he threw.
Maybe throwing from the correct spot changes his shot enough to cost him an extra throw on the hole, but we can't really assume that either.
I think biscoe is right...it will take a violation/call of some sort on the final hole of a tournament where the correctly applied penalty decides the winner before we see any kind of drastic shift in the prevailing culture and attitude toward the rules.
BuiltTooLong
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2014
- Messages
- 1,740
Does anyone think that if the situation were reversed and his ideal line of play was toward the basket and not toward the mandatory, that he would have taken the less advantageous lie toward mando instead of lining up toward the pin?
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
Thanks brutalbrutus for the link. Yeah, that's pretty egregious. I see what Lyle is saying, but he's not even within the "box" as it should have been determined (line of play from the basket).
Based on Jerm's pointing, I drew an "M" roughly where the mando is. The arrow points roughly where the target is. He was 100% wrong to use the mando to determine line of play in this situation. And by doing that, his foot was not on the legal lie when he released.
Obviously, he did it to get clearance from the tree for his throw. I don't think he intentionally cheated to do it. I think he was genuinely applying what he thought was correct but he had the rule wrong. So less a matter of him trying to skirt the rules and more a matter of more pros who doesn't know the rules well enough.
It's interesting how these things go. For some reason, I'm dense, I had come to the conclusion that 20cm was wider than the disc. That means his foot is actually close. But 20cm is about eight inches. Clearly, on lining up to the basket, Jerm is way off. Nice catch! and thanks for the diagram.
As an aside, there's a lot of assuming about motivation in these discussions. For one, I'm sort of opposed to the idea of assuming that Jerm knew he was cheating. I would argue that he wasn't meticulous enough. If that amounts to cheating for some, I understand, but I don't think Jerm went at it with the idea, "okay, I'm gonna step wide of my mark to give me some room on the tree. I think he took the room he needed and didn't bother to make sure it was right.
IMO, Zanguini is correct, does it matter? Well yeah, Nate won if it matters.
onemilemore
* Ace Member *
Similar to how you hear a lot of players citing the Schusterick/Memorial situation as the reason they are extra careful with scorecards.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
This is a really interesting point to me. Clearly, as Steve wrote and you've made clear, they all misunderstood the rule. Now in soccer, a misinterpretation stands, although the mistake is on the part of a ref. As a body, do we want there to be a consequence for a misinterpretation of the rules?
Second, again, I don't think Jerm actively cheated, but I don't see how anyone in this lie would think the lop was to the mando?
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
- Messages
- 6,854
Certainly not if it was only caught by a bunch of keyboard warriors two days later.
You should watch the video. He starts on the correct lie, sizing up his shot and seemingly not liking his proximity to the tree. Then he steps back, looks up at the mando, and proceeds to move his landing point/lie to the left, citing the mando and rules as he does. He did everything on the basis of the rule requiring him to line up with the mando.
It really comes down to whether you believe he knew the correct rule and intentionally deceived his group by knowingly citing a fake/incorrect rule to gain an advantage, or if he genuinely thought he was following the rules and his error was not knowing the rule properly. I lean toward the latter. Still not a good look for the sport, but not what I would call cheating either.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2012
- Messages
- 2,418
rules discussions are good. before this i would have thought the same as jerm, but now i know. it's a lot to ask for everyone to remember every little detail of the rules. my thought was mark to nearest mando until it is passed. a diagram would defiantly clear up the complexity of the wording... cleared up a little here
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
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- 6,854
Anyway......
Here is how the holes themselves performed last year and this year.
Holes #5, #6, and #18 had another good year, in fact all three of these holes increased their influence for 2018.
At the other end, hole #2 was even more random this year than last, and it was the worst hole last year.
Holes #9, #10, #1, #16, and #13 put in a weaker performance this year, probably making it easier for #14, #17, and #11 to make a positive contribution.
Holes #15, #7, and #3 stepped up to become big-boy holes this year.
Does anyone have links to the 2017 & 2018 caddy books so we can pretend to figure out why things were different?
Here is how the holes themselves performed last year and this year.
Holes #5, #6, and #18 had another good year, in fact all three of these holes increased their influence for 2018.
At the other end, hole #2 was even more random this year than last, and it was the worst hole last year.
Holes #9, #10, #1, #16, and #13 put in a weaker performance this year, probably making it easier for #14, #17, and #11 to make a positive contribution.
Holes #15, #7, and #3 stepped up to become big-boy holes this year.
Does anyone have links to the 2017 & 2018 caddy books so we can pretend to figure out why things were different?
Attachments
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
Interesting event. Thanks for taking the time to explain it. I would still argue that he looked at the situation, went through the rules to find if he had any options like any player would and thought he found one. It sounds like you're somewhere around there. But that still leaves us with the notion of what to do? I agree with you, it looks bad for the sport, sort of. I've done enough soccer refereeing to know that sport tolerates a lot of mistakes, on the part of referees and players. Of course, one of my pet peeves about soccer is that they don't fix the situation. They allow the same mistakes and problems to go on without addressing how the rules are called, and equity.
It seems to me that Nate wins, and as has been commented on, that should wake players up to a little more focus, but it doesn't seem to.
notroman
* Ace Member *
Hole #7 was the starting hole for the tournament and hasn't changed between 2017 and 2018. I thought maybe the banner wall was new this year that stopped some drives from rolling OB but after reviewing footage from last year the wall was definitely always there.
notroman
* Ace Member *
The only thing I can think of different (besides the player base) between 2017 and 2018 on the starting hole is the wind/weather.
2017 weather for 10am-5pm
day 1: S wind 13-17mph, overcast
day 2: S wind 13-22mph gust 27mph, overcast
day 3: S wind 6-12mph, partly cloudy
2018 weather for 10am-5pm
day 1: S wind 17-25mph gust 33mph, clear
day 2: WSW wind 8-12mph gust 17mph, clear becoming overcast
day 3: S wind 8-13mph, overcast becoming scattered storms
So last year we saw two windy days followed by a relatively calm final round, this year we saw a very windy first round followed by relatively calm two days.
2017 weather for 10am-5pm
day 1: S wind 13-17mph, overcast
day 2: S wind 13-22mph gust 27mph, overcast
day 3: S wind 6-12mph, partly cloudy
2018 weather for 10am-5pm
day 1: S wind 17-25mph gust 33mph, clear
day 2: WSW wind 8-12mph gust 17mph, clear becoming overcast
day 3: S wind 8-13mph, overcast becoming scattered storms
So last year we saw two windy days followed by a relatively calm final round, this year we saw a very windy first round followed by relatively calm two days.
