2018 Waco Annual Charity Open DGPT

[Batmanx2008]

not gonna lie, if i was on that card during that round as a competitor I would have been seriously confused by what Jerm was trying to do lol. Which in turn I would ask him to show me it in the rule book if that is allowed.

 

[lyleoross]

I alluded to this on the other thread, the argument that Jerm made doesn't say, I didn't know the rule. He made a rather nuanced point by citing parts of the rule that showed he knew it quite well. If he hadn't known the rule, he says something like:. "hey guys, I'm too close to this tree, but have a recollection that when there's a mando, the lop is to the mando.". If Jerm says something like that, the card says, "show us.". Even that comment shows a good knowledge of the rules, not great, but not bad either.

To get to where Jerm was you have to have a great knowledge of the rules, and pressure to look into them for a solution. Again, this doesn't say Jerm cheated, just that he had a good enough knowledge to dig around for a solution. I hope everyone looks to the rules for solutions to tricky situations. That's why it's there.

As for Jerm not apologizing. Jerm, please don't! Really, we're such snowflakes that we need an apology? Jerm played great, things happen. He won! He didn't try and sneak cheat, a mistake happened. I think I can give him pass.

 

[Steve West]

not gonna lie, if i was on that card during that round as a competitor I would have been seriously confused by what Jerm was trying to do lol. Which in turn I would ask him to show me it in the rule book if that is allowed.

And then asked him to play it both ways provisionally, so you could check with the TD later, right?

 

[mosman253]

In regards to mandogate.I thought nate disagreed with the throw.but what recourse does he have? If he calls a foot fault, it seems like nobody is going second it based on it being a hazy interpretation. Nobody wants to assess a stroke to someone when the rule is questionable. I feel like nate should have been able to atleast ask for a provisional since he correctly thought the rule was being misinterpreted. At wich point a pdga OFFICIAL would determine the official score of the hole.

I once walked over to cardmates disc, marked it and slammed it in the basket before he could tell me to stop. My card mates did not want give a stroke, said put it back and go hole out from your own lie. no penalty.i knew i deserved atleast one stroke. So after the round i ask the td. This guy shrugs it off like, why are you asking me about rules, idk. And walks off. ::should have been assessed a one stroke penalty::

Things like this are why its hard for me to keep paying into this professional frisbee golf circus. Imo Nate had that tournament stolen from him by some biggest names in disc golf with a oops i didnt know shrug. And this right after the ricky gate. Shamefull start to the year.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Something that could be done in the Competition Manual or as a Tour Manager directive (if PDGA approves) is to apply a 1-throw penalty to everyone in the group later or after the round when it's clear (video evidence allowed) they did not crack open the rule book or look at the online version before a player in the group was approved to make what turns out to be an incorrect throw or call, and in addition, they did not even throw provisionals. Not following these suggested, but not yet required, actions was the primary flaw in this self-officiated situation.

 

[robdeforge]

In regards to mandogate.I thought nate disagreed with the throw.but what recourse does he have?

he should pull out a rule book, or look it up on his phone, before resorting to anything else. who knows how the situation would have played out if that had happened.. also I don't know if we can hear what Perkins says to Jerm? I only know of what Jerm said on the commentary, that Nate "didn't know how he felt about that" (paraphrased).

normally not a fan of -gate words but mandogate is fun for some reason

 

[JC17393]

In regards to mandogate.I thought nate disagreed with the throw.but what recourse does he have? If he calls a foot fault, it seems like nobody is going second it based on it being a hazy interpretation. Nobody wants to assess a stroke to someone when the rule is questionable. I feel like nate should have been able to atleast ask for a provisional since he correctly thought the rule was being misinterpreted. At wich point a pdga OFFICIAL would determine the official score of the hole.

I once walked over to cardmates disc, marked it and slammed it in the basket before he could tell me to stop. My card mates did not want give a stroke, said put it back and go hole out from your own lie. no penalty.i knew i deserved atleast one stroke. So after the round i ask the td. This guy shrugs it off like, why are you asking me about rules, idk. And walks off. ::should have been assessed a one stroke penalty::

Things like this are why its hard for me to keep paying into this professional frisbee golf circus. Imo Nate had that tournament stolen from him by some biggest names in disc golf with a oops i didnt know shrug. And this right after the ricky gate. Shamefull start to the year.

If Nate disagreed with what Jerm was doing (do we know that he did?), he had plenty of options available to him.

Option 1...speak up and question what Jerm was doing as he was doing it. It's not like Jerm snuck up and threw from the incorrect lie before anyone could stop him. He explained what he was doing and why, including making a point of clearing some debris from that lie. There was plenty of time to say "hey, are you sure that's legal?" and, you know, pull out a rule book (or a phone that could access the online rule book) and look it up. If it was still a question after looking up the rules, on to...

Option 2...suggest Jerm play provisionally from each position and bring the situation to the TD. I honestly don't think this would have been necessary if the rule book had actually been consulted, but let's go with the premise that the rule is worded in an oh-so-confusing way and call it inconclusive. The TD, in conjunction with the PDGA (an event that big, even if there isn't a PDGA staffer on site, you can get one on the phone), could have sorted it out in a second.

Option 3...call the foot fault. Again, I don't think it should have come to this because I think it should have been halted before Jerm threw the shot, but let's say he does in spite of any protests and without declaring provisionals. Call the foot fault. Maybe it's seconded, maybe it's not, but at least it's on record. If it is seconded, Jerm still has the option of appealing to the TD, arguing his case that he was legal, and try to have the penalty removed from his score. Not that he'd succeed if the TD knows his rules, but the option is there.

Ultimately, there should be no "what could Nate have done?" excuses. He had choices if he questioned what Jerm was doing. I'm not sure he questioned it, at least not in real time. If he did, and he didn't do anything about it, that's his own error. Nothing was "stolen" from him.

 

[brutalbrutus]

If Nate disagreed with what Jerm was doing (do we know that he did?), he had plenty of options available to him.

Jerm said during the Jomez vid that Nate said "I don't know how I feel about that." as they were walking up...

 

[JC17393]

Jerm said during the Jomez vid that Nate said "I don't know how I feel about that." as they were walking up...

Walking up to what, the green after the throw? Then that's lame on his part to wait that long.

If he said it before Jerm threw, then why the hell didn't a rule book get brought out? Or at least, why wasn't an actual discussion had?

 

[brutalbrutus]

He just said walking up. I am assuming it was to the green...

 

[SD86]

In regards to mandogate.I thought nate disagreed with the throw.but what recourse does he have? If he calls a foot fault, it seems like nobody is going second it based on it being a hazy interpretation. Nobody wants to assess a stroke to someone when the rule is questionable. I feel like nate should have been able to atleast ask for a provisional since he correctly thought the rule was being misinterpreted. At wich point a pdga OFFICIAL would determine the official score of the hole.

I once walked over to cardmates disc, marked it and slammed it in the basket before he could tell me to stop. My card mates did not want give a stroke, said put it back and go hole out from your own lie. no penalty.i knew i deserved atleast one stroke. So after the round i ask the td. This guy shrugs it off like, why are you asking me about rules, idk. And walks off. ::should have been assessed a one stroke penalty::

Things like this are why its hard for me to keep paying into this professional frisbee golf circus. Imo Nate had that tournament stolen from him by some biggest names in disc golf with a oops i didnt know shrug. And this right after the ricky gate. Shamefull start to the year.

Something like your situation happened on video last year. Two discs side by side near the basket, guy putted from the wrong one. The solution was they called a foot fault, which was a warning on the first offense before this year, and the guy threw from his disc's lie with no stroke penalty.

 

[notroman]

Something like your situation happened on video last year. Two discs side by side near the basket, guy putted from the wrong one. The solution was they called a foot fault, which was a warning on the first offense before this year, and the guy threw from his disc's lie with no stroke penalty.

Unfortunately that's not the correct call to make, since it's technically a misplay and not a foot fault. Correct call for a misplay is 1 stroke penalty then play from the correct lie.

 

[mosman253]

If Nate disagreed with what Jerm was doing (do we know that he did?), he had plenty of options available to him.

Option 1...speak up and question what Jerm was doing as he was doing it. It's not like Jerm snuck up and threw from the incorrect lie before anyone could stop him. He explained what he was doing and why, including making a point of clearing some debris from that lie. There was plenty of time to say "hey, are you sure that's legal?" and, you know, pull out a rule book (or a phone that could access the online rule book) and look it up. If it was still a question after looking up the rules, on to...

Option 2...suggest Jerm play provisionally from each position and bring the situation to the TD. I honestly don't think this would have been necessary if the rule book had actually been consulted, but let's go with the premise that the rule is worded in an oh-so-confusing way and call it inconclusive. The TD, in conjunction with the PDGA (an event that big, even if there isn't a PDGA staffer on site, you can get one on the phone), could have sorted it out in a second.

Option 3...call the foot fault. Again, I don't think it should have come to this because I think it should have been halted before Jerm threw the shot, but let's say he does in spite of any protests and without declaring provisionals. Call the foot fault. Maybe it's seconded, maybe it's not, but at least it's on record. If it is seconded, Jerm still has the option of appealing to the TD, arguing his case that he was legal, and try to have the penalty removed from his score. Not that he'd succeed if the TD knows his rules, but the option is there.

Ultimately, there should be no "what could Nate have done?" excuses. He had choices if he questioned what Jerm was doing. I'm not sure he questioned it, at least not in real time. If he did, and he didn't do anything about it, that's his own error. Nothing was "stolen" from him.

Jerm himself said nate disaggreed, im sure jerm didnt slip the lie in there, im sure he was perfectly clear about his intentions based on his interpretation of the rule. But the group allowed it, why would you call the the fault, you know there will be no second.I dont believe you can force somone to take a provisional, and there is no appeal process.

 

[SD86]

Unfortunately that's not the correct call to make, since it's technically a misplay and not a foot fault. Correct call for a misplay is 1 stroke penalty then play from the correct lie.

You're likely correct, but IIRC the other players weren't sure what to do, and came to that solution as a group. Since everyone agreed, that's what went down and everyone moved on. This was a minor tournament, also.

Anyhoo, suffice it to say that everyone is more aware of that mando rule and its correct interpretation...

 

[mosman253]

Unfortunately that's not the correct call to make, since it's technically a misplay and not a foot fault. Correct call for a misplay is 1 stroke penalty then play from the correct lie.

I believe this is correct.discussed in another rules thread.

 

[lyleoross]

Something that could be done in the Competition Manual or as a Tour Manager directive (if PDGA approves) is to apply a 1-throw penalty to everyone in the group later or after the round when it's clear (video evidence allowed) they did not crack open the rule book or look at the online version before a player in the group was approved to make what turns out to be an incorrect throw or call, and in addition, they did not even throw provisionals. Not following these suggested, but not yet required, actions was the primary flaw in this self-officiated situation.

My vision of Chuck is this fairly mellow guy, but this is pretty harsh. On the other hand, I have to say this has merit. You'd have this happen once, maybe twice, and then players would crack the book.

 

[JC17393]

Jerm himself said nate disaggreed, im sure jerm didnt slip the lie in there, im sure he was perfectly clear about his intentions based on his interpretation of the rule. But the group allowed it, why would you call the the fault, you know there will be no second.I dont believe you can force somone to take a provisional, and there is no appeal process.

Okay, Nate disagreed, but when did he say that? Before or after Jerm threw the shot? That's important. If he disagreed but didn't say anything until after the fact, he ****ed up and he can't really complain about it.

If he disagreed before the throw was made and things still proceeded as they did, then yes, he absolutely can and should call the foot fault even knowing there would be no second. Not thinking you'll get a second is the wrong reason to not make a call. If you think a rule was broken, you speak up and let the chips fall. If it's not seconded, no harm done, but at least you voiced your view on the matter. What you don't do is not call it and then express disappointment or frustration afterward that the player may have "gotten away" with something.

Yes, you can't force a provisional (never said you could), but there's no reason you can't suggest it (which is what I said). Even if the rest of the group disagrees with you about a ruling, there's no harm in suggesting provisionals. Just as there's no real harm in throwing provisionals even if you are convinced that you are right and they aren't necessary.

Provisional throws or not though, any player can still take the matter to the TD afterward. You ALWAYS have the right to appeal any ruling to the TD whether provisionals are thrown or not. And if I were in Nate's (or Paul's or Garrett's) position in that group, and I felt Jerm was in the wrong even if the rest of the group did not, I'd still be appealing to the TD about it (after being more vocal about my objections than any of those guys were at the time).

The point is not whether or not Perkins said he disagreed or not. It's that he clearly didn't go about it the right way if he did. It's not a matter of "what could he have done?" It's he didn't do what he should have done.

 

[Nova P]

Terry Miller's videos of FPO R1 and R2 are up, with some new voices behind the microphones. Check it out!

R1 front: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2qtzObxXMs

R1 back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExUTDWzCEro

R2 front: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEm1A5t9_g4

R2 back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPs4SKxl75A

(Full disclosure: I'm one of the trio commenting on round two.)

 

[mosman253]

Okay, Nate disagreed, but when did he say that? Before or after Jerm threw the shot? That's important. If he disagreed but didn't say anything until after the fact, he ****ed up and he can't really complain about it.

If he disagreed before the throw was made and things still proceeded as they did, then yes, he absolutely can and should call the foot fault even knowing there would be no second. Not thinking you'll get a second is the wrong reason to not make a call. If you think a rule was broken, you speak up and let the chips fall. If it's not seconded, no harm done, but at least you voiced your view on the matter. What you don't do is not call it and then express disappointment or frustration afterward that the player may have "gotten away" with something.

Yes, you can't force a provisional (never said you could), but there's no reason you can't suggest it (which is what I said). Even if the rest of the group disagrees with you about a ruling, there's no harm in suggesting provisionals. Just as there's no real harm in throwing provisionals even if you are convinced that you are right and they aren't necessary.

Provisional throws or not though, any player can still take the matter to the TD afterward. You ALWAYS have the right to appeal any ruling to the TD whether provisionals are thrown or not. And if I were in Nate's (or Paul's or Garrett's) position in that group, and I felt Jerm was in the wrong even if the rest of the group did not, I'd still be appealing to the TD about it (after being more vocal about my objections than any of those guys were at the time).

The point is not whether or not Perkins said he disagreed or not. It's that he clearly didn't go about it the right way if he did. It's not a matter of "what could he have done?" It's he didn't do what he should have done.

Speculation and what ifs aside.calling a foot fault that you know your card mates are going to shrug off is nothing but a distraction to you, as a competitor you take the calls and and try and move on. Suggestions are just that, holds no weight. If your cardmates/officials assess you a penalty you can go cry to td all you want, but you cant present any photo or video evidence. It is what it is. Get uhm next time. impotence is on the pdga to clean this up. These people are supposed to be the ambassadors and they are still not understanding these rule changes/nuances.

I digress that it wasnt stolen from nate, but he was robbed.

 

[JC17393]

I digress that it wasnt stolen from nate, but he was robbed.

He wasn't robbed and there's nothing to gain trying to argue that.

Jerm may have incorrectly used a rule that put him on the wrong lie, but he could have been prevented from doing so if any of the players in the group, including Nate, spoke up. He could have been penalized for committing the error. That neither of those things happened is on the group 100%. To me, that nullifies the notion that anyone was "robbed" here.

impotence is on the pdga to clean this up.

I think you mean impetus here, but how is this on the PDGA? What can they do to improve player's knowledge of the rules? Absent Chuck's suggestion up-thread of instituting the power to assess post-round penalties for failing to consult the rule book to get rulings correct, the solution is in the players' hands: read the book, understand the rules, and most importantly, CALL OUT VIOLATIONS OR POTENTIAL VIOLATIONS WHEN THEY HAPPEN.