2023 PDGA Champions Cup, April 20-23

[_MTL_]

The pros have outgrown this course, it plays soft.

On the flip side, -16 in MPO and +6 in FPO over 4 rounds in 4 days of absolutely perfect conditions was the cash line.

Easy to look at the top 10 people and be like "wow too easy" and not the many many elite players averaging just a few under or worse per round.

 

[txmxer]

Some really good disc golfers if you ask me. Pretty good weather throughout probably helped the scores.

They didn't let Isaac off the hook today. Really awesome event for him. Silas was crazy on fire through 12. I thought he was actually going to catch or at least get in range to challenge Isaac at that point.

 

[oddjob]

Yeah, this one is soft, we need more ledgestone and ball golf courses to really test everyone ��

 

[seedlings]

Wow. Great effort

Spoiler

Isaac

! His effort beats any other disc golfer's best, imho, this weekend.

Shout to Discmania for the

Spoiler

next three places-

especially

Spoiler

Silas Shultz.

Many of the usual suspects did not fare well at all (by their standards).

 

[BogeyNoMore]

MPO Champion: 72 holes, 42 birdies, 2 bogeys.
FPO Champion: Shooting the hot round... all four rounds.

That's getting it done.

Based on the post pro commentary, maybe Jackson played a bit easier and cleaner than it has in recent years, but there's still plenty of trouble to be had if you don't control your shots, and everyone has to play the same course as all the other FPO/MPO players.

Kudos to those trying to charge from the chase card today, but those two simply bested the field this week.

 

[Steve West]

Kristin is still a 990 player. She'll still be a 990 player playing against men.

Actually, no, she'd be rated lower.

As has been pointed out, without enough cross-pollination FPO ratings don't mean the same thing as MPO ratings. Right now, it takes more skill to get a 990 rating playing against MPO than it does playing against FPO.

Also, the extra distance required for the MPO courses (at least at the top events) would become a weakness in her game.

 

[glassila]

Tattar's 4 rounds averaged out to just under 1010 per round (1009.75 to be exact).
In MPO 1011 for 4 rounds would put you in a tie for 57th place (with Drew Gibson, Thomas Gilbert and others at -11).

I have no idea if Tattar would have shot -11 if she had played the MPO tees and baskets or not, but it would be interesting to see what she would shoot using the MPO tees & baskets.

 

[Flick Maniac]

Really loved the whole event. Stellar shooting for the top guys. The course is becoming one of my favorites. Zero gimmicks. Just in awe looking at the perfect drives being carved through the tunnels.

 

[EllEstar]

Tattar's 4 rounds averaged out to just under 1010 per round (1009.75 to be exact).
In MPO 1011 for 4 rounds would put you in a tie for 57th place (with Drew Gibson, Thomas Gilbert and others at -11).

I have no idea if Tattar would have shot -11 if she had played the MPO tees and baskets or not, but it would be interesting to see what she would shoot using the MPO tees & baskets.

Here's another just for fun:

6/18 holes had the same teepad and basket placement for MPO and FPO (one had its par changed but that's easily ignored).

We can look at Kristin's performance on those holes, compare it to the performance of the MPO field and extrapolate from that what she would've shot on the rest of the MPO course by comparing her to the average MPO player.

This is a very flawed way of guessing what she would've shot, many of those are among the easiest MPO holes and hardest FPO holes and we have no idea how that would scale for KT's skills. This is just for fun.

The holes in question are holes 1, 2, 4, 8, 10 and 16. Across 4 rounds KT shot 2 under the MPO par on those holes, with 3 birdies and 1 bogey (2 eagles, a birdie and a bogey on the FPO par). The average MPO player across 4 rounds shot 7.99 under par.

The par on those holes is 21, so across 4 rounds KT shot 82 on those holes and the average MPO player shot 76.01. 82/76.01 = 1.0788, so KT shot 7.88% worse.

The average MPO player played shot 251.68 across 4 rounds, 251.68*1.0788 = 271.5. The MPO course par is 66 so KT would've shot 271.5 - 4*66 = 7.5, or 7.5 over par.

That would've put her in 101st place out of 104, half a stroke worse than Jason Lynn in 100th. And just for curiosity, Brent Hannu, who did get 101st place in MPO, played those 6 holes 2 under par across the 4 rounds, just like Kristin.


For what it's worth I think Kristin would've probably taken a heck of a lot fewer big numbers than most of the guys playing over par, because her skillset doesn't allow her to get aggressive on some of the tougher holes where there are a lot of big numbers, like 18 for example, and I don't think there are many holes where she couldn't have reasonably played for par.

All this aside, I think it's much more fun watching her destroy the FPO field than seeing her get 40-100th in MPO. But I do think it would be fun to see one of the worse touring guys (like Nate Perkins or Noah Meintsma, for example) playing against KT and a couple of other top FPO players on the FPO tees in a practice round or skins match or something.

 

[Jolt]

Strange. . .Discraft and Innova had ZERO players in the top 10 MPO!!

Innova had a few in FPO but only ONE Discraft Player.

So Discrafts huge strong and expensive team got ONE top 10 in MPO FPO combined?!?

 

[kyflash]

OK the worst stat of the day and Doss acted like it was some sort of revelation.

"Schultz has 1% chance of winning at beginning of day, 2% a few holes ago, and now 5%. Wow!"

He acted as if Schultz' chances jumped to 50% or something.

That's nate doss being nate doss. Third best Nate on coverage.

Surprised it didn't remind him of a win he had while trailing part way through the last round.

 

[robdeforge]

Actually, no, she'd be rated lower.

As has been pointed out, without enough cross-pollination FPO ratings don't mean the same thing as MPO ratings. Right now, it takes more skill to get a 990 rating playing against MPO than it does playing against FPO.

Also, the extra distance required for the MPO courses (at least at the top events) would become a weakness in her game.

is there any way to try to quantify the difference? i.e. kristin being 990 rated in FPO, could we estimate what she rate in MPO, or do we just know that there is a difference?

 

[Flick Maniac]

That's nate doss being nate doss. Third best Nate on coverage.

Surprised it didn't remind him of a win he had while trailing part way through the last round.

I do think somewhere close to the end (during final hole iirc) he did lapse momentarily into "this reminds me of my days" lore, because I remember instantly thinking this moment isnt about you, so stuff it

 

[Steve West]

is there any way to try to quantify the difference? i.e. kristin being 990 rated in FPO, could we estimate what she rate in MPO, or do we just know that there is a difference?

Sure, there are some courses that both MPO and FPO played. More if you include all divisions. Look at those. European tournaments often use one layout for everyone.

It will still be hard to pin down exactly what she could do, as she plays out on the edge of available data. Also, the courses (if she did play MPO) would generally be longer than the courses where both FPO and MPO played.

 

[Cgkdisc]

is there any way to try to quantify the difference? i.e. kristin being 990 rated in FPO, could we estimate what she rate in MPO, or do we just know that there is a difference?

What Steve was getting at is the player rating is the aggregate of a variety of skills of various quality. For example, a player may have gotten their rating based more on distance and throwing skills, say forehand and rollers, others with accuracy, putting and scrambling. The levels of a player's skills can't really be teased out from their rating. However, one thing that's been discovered and shouldn't be surprising is that males of a certain rating can usually throw farther than women of the same rating.

So, depending on the course being played, if there are a few par 3s and par 4s longer than the range of the woman, the male will have a specific advantage on those holes even if he's unable to take advantage on every one of them. However, if they play a course where the woman can theoretically reach every hole in regulation with good throws, it will likely be a close battle with both of them shooting about the same score unless it's especially windy where the male's power edge would matter.

 

[oddjob]

Strange. . .Discraft and Innova had ZERO players in the top 10 MPO!!

Innova had a few in FPO but only ONE Discraft Player.

So Discrafts huge strong and expensive team got ONE top 10 in MPO FPO combined?!?

Agree, Innova and Discraft are dead. Theyll never place in the Top 10 again bc their discs suck...

The weed must be strong in Finland.

 

[Steve West]

What Steve was getting at is the player rating is the aggregate of a variety of skills of various quality. For example, a player may have gotten their rating based more on distance and throwing skills, say forehand and rollers, others with accuracy, putting and scrambling. The levels of a player's skills can't really be teased out from their rating. However, one thing that's been discovered and shouldn't be surprising is that males of a certain rating can usually throw farther than women of the same rating.

So, depending on the course being played, if there are a few par 3s and par 4s longer than the range of the woman, the male will have a specific advantage on those holes even if he's unable to take advantage on every one of them. However, if they play a course where the woman can theoretically reach every hole in regulation with good throws, it will likely be a close battle with both of them shooting about the same score unless it's especially windy where the male's power edge would matter.

What I was getting at was mainly the partial independence of the two bodies of ratings.

If we removed the fluffiness of FPO ratings to get them in line with MPO (so any two players of the same rating would be expected to average the same score across a typical mix of courses), perhaps the differences in length thrown as function of rating would go away. Or some of it.

Whether there is a reasonable length of course where shorter throwers could score as well as longer throwers seems doubtful. It reminds me of the (now dis-proven) theory that for the FPO field to score like the MPO field, there would be no need to change the 200-some-foot holes.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Whether there is a reasonable length of course where shorter throwers could score as well as longer throwers seems doubtful. It reminds me of the (now dis-proven) theory that for the FPO field to score like the MPO field, there would be no need to change the 200-some-foot holes.

Take a look at the scoring between FPO and MPO on hole 3, a tight turn 277' in the Music City Open. If we select a pool of MPO/FPO players with the same rating and compare their scores, it's one example where MPO/FPO players of the same rating might average the same score.

 

[Steve West]

Take a look at the scoring between FPO and MPO on hole 3, a tight turn 277' in the Music City Open. If we select a pool of MPO/FPO players with the same rating and compare their scores, it's one example where MPO/FPO players of the same rating might average the same score.

"One example"..."might".

Anything can happen on one hole. In this case, the scores for FPO trended up by rating, so the average score for ratings of about 940 might be equal - where the line going down crosses the line going up.

From the same data, we could could also "conclude" that 860-rated FPOs are as good as 969-rated MPOs. Which would also not be realistic.

 

[Brychanus]

Here's another just for fun:

That would've put her in 101st place out of 104, half a stroke worse than Jason Lynn in 100th.

Thanks for doing that. Also just for fun, Jason Lynn put up a 980-rated average at Champion's cup in MPO to Tattar's 1010-rated average in FPO.

Obviously I am a big fan of Tattar. I find the FPO/MPO comparison problem & weight on distance at the pro level interesting. It would be fun to see more head-to-head events and I wonder what effect that would have on both leagues.