Am Tournaments. Has anyone ran a no player pack, Trophy Only event?

[ThunderEagle]

I just ran my first PDGA Sanctioned event. We had a modest turnout (new event, with a very popular B tier about 100 miles away). I did a standard custom stamped disc player pack, attempted to keep the cost fairly low. $35 for MA3 and MA2, $40 for higher. Player pack and fees were $20 of the cost, rest to payouts.

I'll be honest. I don't need more discs at this point. I've been playing just under 3 years in that time I have played in 20 sanctioned events. A tournament that I paid 10-20 bucks that was no PP and trophy only, and I'm happy to let the TD/Club pocket the rest would be very appealing to me. The PDGA can still get their cut, the TD can still make pretty close to what they made before. The only one cut out is the disc manufacturers obviously.

I know what I just purposed isn't allowed by PDGA rules. I like playing in tournaments. I like being in a rating protected division, because at 50, I doubt I'm going to get to the point of competing in the Open divisions. While a lot of the tournament stamps are cool, I just don't need the disc. If I do happen to get a payout of 25-50, or whatever it may be, I really start to struggle to pick out 2-3 discs. I throw what I throw, and end up just stock piling backups of my discs.

I really see this structure as an issue as we continue to try and grow the sport, and I fear the PDGA will never address this, and it would be a blow to the disc manufacturers.

 

[kenjiac]

I would play in an event like this. What's PDGA take on this? I read the trophy only event document. Is no players pack super low cost allowed to be sanctioned? Or would it need to be CEP or X tier?

https://www.pdga.com/files/pdga_true_amateur_event_guidelines.pdf

 

[blake833]

What are things other than discs that would be good in a player pack? small towels? I saw a tournament give out little clipboards for scorecards. That was pretty handy

 

[ThunderEagle]

What are things other than discs that would be good in a player pack? small towels? I saw a tournament give out little clipboards for scorecards. That was pretty handy

Sure, different things are nice, but how many clip boards and towels do you need? I'd like to get rid of both player packs and payouts. Or at least have the option. If I pay $20 for entry, no players pack, and trophies for each division, the TD or club make about the same amount of money, since they are probably making 7-10 bucks a disc. A lot less hassle in dealing with the inventory. I think it would be interesting to be an option, but currently you can't make a profit on the entry fee like that.

I think at best you could do would without a players pack and/or payouts is about $3 a person. It is a funny money game.

 

[JC17393]

I would play in an event like this. What's PDGA take on this? I read the trophy only event document. Is no players pack super low cost allowed to be sanctioned? Or would it need to be CEP or X tier?

https://www.pdga.com/files/pdga_true_amateur_event_guidelines.pdf

Of course it's allowed. If most if not all of the entry fee is allowable pass through fees (PDGA player fee, regional/state/local series fees, greens fees, etc), you can whittle the net entry down to nearly nothing and meet all payout requirements. 85-100% of nothing is still nothing.

I used to run $10 C-tiers...$2 PDGA fee, $1 NEFA series fee, $1 state series fee, $5 greens fee, $1 to trophies. Most of the ams played for the fun and to chase points in the two series. Those who didn't like it and wanted to play for something started running unsanctioned tournaments that paid cash to everyone.

The model works for public park courses too...just pick an entry that covers the bare minimum of necessary fees. I think the bare minimum entry for a PDGA tournament would have to be $2, to cover the player fee. Less if you find a sponsor to cover those.

 

[ChrisWoj]

I don't see any reason the PDGA wouldn't allow this. They already have sanctioned leagues and if I remember correctly tournaments have more $$$ per player going to the PDGA than a league, so its not like they'd be losing money by allowing it - relative to pushing you into some league format.

 

[ThunderEagle]

I used to run $10 C-tiers...$2 PDGA fee, $1 NEFA series fee, $1 state series fee, $5 greens fee, $1 to trophies.

So, in your situation, if there was no greens fees or series, then the most you could charge as an entry is $3?

Not a horrible idea. I'd like to see a TD/Club still charge $10 and be able to keep the $7. I'd play the heck out of those tournaments. Honestly, the main reason we do PDGA sanctioned events is for the insurance.

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

I've played in a number of tournaments that do AM plastic payout but not player's pack. One tournament did stamped discs as trophies. I doubt these tournaments compete with other tournaments on "bang for buck" given MSRP of players packs often offered.

That's all fine by me. I'll pay the fee to play because someone else is doing the organizing and I'm not. Granted, these aren't low cost tournaments. $30-45 for MA2.

I'd sign up in a second for a $15 no trophy, no plastic, no players pack tournament. Pay for rating, insurance, and associates fees. And I bring lunch even when provided for medical reasons, so don't need that either.

 

[JC17393]

So, in your situation, if there was no greens fees or series, then the most you could charge as an entry is $3?

Not a horrible idea. I'd like to see a TD/Club still charge $10 and be able to keep the $7. I'd play the heck out of those tournaments. Honestly, the main reason we do PDGA sanctioned events is for the insurance.

The least I could charge with no intention of doing player packs or payouts of any kind beyond a trophy is $3, yes.

Frankly, I don't see why a distinction needs to be made between a fee paid for use of a P2P course (a seemingly acceptable "greens fee") and a fee to the club or TD at a regular park (which isn't expressly listed but IMO should fall under the same greens fee category). As a course owner, I'm able to use the greens fees to cover operation expenses for the tournament (scorecards, pencils, scoreboard, signs, etc). Even at tournaments I run at other people's courses, they pay for those expenses out of the greens fees they collect. Seems silly that a club or individual TD can't charge a similar fee, within reason, to cover the same expenses (and maybe even pocket a modest profit). Particularly in the case of a low cost, no-frills tournament like you propose.

If the PDGA were to make a single change to their tournament requirements/standards, I feel like making it clear that greens fee doesn't just apply to tournaments played on a pay-to-play course but to any course would be the most beneficial. Cap it if they feel it would be abused, or require more detailed financial reports in order to justify it, but give TDs/clubs a bit more wiggle room to make sure expenses are covered without the need to invest in merchandise that still carries no guarantee of breaking even.

 

[DavidSauls]

If the PDGA were to make a single change to their tournament requirements/standards, I feel like making it clear that greens fee doesn't just apply to tournaments played on a pay-to-play course but to any course would be the most beneficial. Cap it if they feel it would be abused, or require more detailed financial reports in order to justify it, but give TDs/clubs a bit more wiggle room to make sure expenses are covered without the need to invest in merchandise that still carries no guarantee of breaking even.

I really wish the PDGA would go further and allow a tournament fee, capped at $10 or $20, to be deducted off the top. If announced in advance, like limiting divisions.

Whether TDs would use it, or how well it would go over with players in some places, is another issue. But it would be great to have the option.

 

[Mechaniac]

This is something I have talked to several people about here in our area. Tournament fees continue to rise and I have enough discs to last my grandkids kids. If I want a new disc I'll buy one. If I need a shirt I'll buy one. What I want is the competition and camaraderie that go with it. I want the TD to be paid well for running an event and to be able to continue to run events. Yeah it's fun to get a few things if you win but ultimately the competition should be the focal point.

 

[DiscFifty]

I live in a different world.. where C-Tiers cost 50.00+, B-Tiers 60.00+. Please come to the DFW area and put on some of these less expensive events.

 

[rhatton1]

I live in a different world.. where C-Tiers cost 50.00+, B-Tiers 60.00+. Please come to the DFW area and put on some of these less expensive events.

If you build it....they will come.


Run one.

Budget for break even at 15 players just in case and anything else is a bonus you can do with as you wish. Put some of the per head fees aside for printing/maintenance, spray paint, rope etc. List your planned budget in the event invite. No one will read it but at least you can point people back to it in the event of a complaint. It's hard for players to call something a rip off when they can see written down what the individual elements of a tournament cost. Most of the time players have never thought that printer ink costs money. Paper isn't free. Trophies have to be bought. etc.

There are lots and lots of players that want to play for the fun of playing in a competition and don't need to be bribed to be there. Go after these players. Pick a course they want to play. Make it as professional as you can. They will play.

I'm not particularly interested in having players at my events that would need to be bribed to be there, it sets a precedence of entitlement. Play well win prizes, you're not getting anything for just turning up. I run one day C tiers as part of an overarching tour, normally on pay to plays and all excess values after expenses go into trophies and prizes for people that play well or pick up spot prizes. The more people that play the more prizes that get given out. It seems to work pretty well as a model. I don't chase around for outside sponsors, my time is move valuable than what I'd get in return.

I really like JC's suggestion for a PDGA change of wording on what constitutes green fees. They shouldn't just pertain to a pay to play fee, but to the overall tournament expenses.

 

[biscoe]

Of course it's allowed. If most if not all of the entry fee is allowable pass through fees (PDGA player fee, regional/state/local series fees, greens fees, etc), you can whittle the net entry down to nearly nothing and meet all payout requirements. 85-100% of nothing is still nothing.

I used to run $10 C-tiers...$2 PDGA fee, $1 NEFA series fee, $1 state series fee, $5 greens fee, $1 to trophies. Most of the ams played for the fun and to chase points in the two series. Those who didn't like it and wanted to play for something started running unsanctioned tournaments that paid cash to everyone.

The model works for public park courses too...just pick an entry that covers the bare minimum of necessary fees. I think the bare minimum entry for a PDGA tournament would have to be $2, to cover the player fee. Less if you find a sponsor to cover those.

I have run a number of $10 C tiers as well. They have been well received around here.

 

[biscoe]

There are lots and lots of players that want to play for the fun of playing in a competition and don't need to be bribed to be there. Go after these players. Pick a course they want to play. Make it as professional as you can. They will play.

I'm not particularly interested in having players at my events that would need to be bribed to be there, it sets a precedence of entitlement.

100x this. If players place no value on the tournament experience itself they are welcome to shop elsewhere.

 

[DavidSauls]

I'd think DFW would be a great place to try this---so many players that even if most prefer the high-entry, high-payout model, there'll be enough left to stock a low-entry, no-payout event.

 

[biscoe]

I live in a different world.. where C-Tiers cost 50.00+, B-Tiers 60.00+. Please come to the DFW area and put on some of these less expensive events.

What specifically prevents you from doing it? The barriers to becoming a PDGA TD are not very high.

 

[DiscFifty]

If you build it....they will come.


Run one.

Budget for break even at 15 players just in case and anything else is a bonus you can do with as you wish. Put some of the per head fees aside for printing/maintenance, spray paint, rope etc. List your planned budget in the event invite. No one will read it but at least you can point people back to it in the event of a complaint. It's hard for players to call something a rip off when they can see written down what the individual elements of a tournament cost. Most of the time players have never thought that printer ink costs money. Paper isn't free. Trophies have to be bought. etc.

There are lots and lots of players that want to play for the fun of playing in a competition and don't need to be bribed to be there. Go after these players. Pick a course they want to play. Make it as professional as you can. They will play.

I'm not particularly interested in having players at my events that would need to be bribed to be there, it sets a precedence of entitlement. Play well win prizes, you're not getting anything for just turning up. I run one day C tiers as part of an overarching tour, normally on pay to plays and all excess values after expenses go into trophies and prizes for people that play well or pick up spot prizes. The more people that play the more prizes that get given out. It seems to work pretty well as a model. I don't chase around for outside sponsors, my time is move valuable than what I'd get in return.

I really like JC's suggestion for a PDGA change of wording on what constitutes green fees. They shouldn't just pertain to a pay to play fee, but to the overall tournament expenses.

Good stuff, thx. It would be interesting to see how well this would be received around here. But the merch connection is very strong in this part of town. lol..

 

[DiscFifty]

What specifically prevents you from doing it? The barriers to becoming a PDGA TD are not very high.

Me personally running it? I'm not public worthy, more of a behind the scenes kind of guy. lol.. I would love to help out if someone were to take this up. But fwiw I did bring this up a while ago with a guy who ran lower cost tournaments elsewhere before he moved here. He told me he was a bit intimidated by the dfw scene due to one of the local tds was also the state chair, etc. This was a while back btw.

 

[davetherocketguy]

I just ran my first PDGA Sanctioned event. We had a modest turnout (new event, with a very popular B tier about 100 miles away). I did a standard custom stamped disc player pack, attempted to keep the cost fairly low. $35 for MA3 and MA2, $40 for higher. Player pack and fees were $20 of the cost, rest to payouts.

I'll be honest. I don't need more discs at this point. I've been playing just under 3 years in that time I have played in 20 sanctioned events. A tournament that I paid 10-20 bucks that was no PP and trophy only, and I'm happy to let the TD/Club pocket the rest would be very appealing to me. The PDGA can still get their cut, the TD can still make pretty close to what they made before. The only one cut out is the disc manufacturers obviously.

I know what I just purposed isn't allowed by PDGA rules. I like playing in tournaments. I like being in a rating protected division, because at 50, I doubt I'm going to get to the point of competing in the Open divisions. While a lot of the tournament stamps are cool, I just don't need the disc. If I do happen to get a payout of 25-50, or whatever it may be, I really start to struggle to pick out 2-3 discs. I throw what I throw, and end up just stock piling backups of my discs.

I really see this structure as an issue as we continue to try and grow the sport, and I fear the PDGA will never address this, and it would be a blow to the disc manufacturers.

The disc makers will be fine IMHO. I ran a trophy only event this past fall and it was well received. Not having to deal with payouts makes a lot of things a lot simpler. You can provide a really nice lunch as part of the players pack and all sorts of goodies to give away for CTP/LP or even just at random. We got a taco truck to come for lunch. I even took the time to make customized trophies for all the players with their name on it. Had them write an address on the back of their player card for me to ship them to once the trophies were done. They had to wait about a month but I don't think anyone cared. With a trophy only event it allows you the financial freedom to do crazy things like that which aren't normally seen. Just follow the true amateur event guidelines - which are pretty reasonable IMHO.

MVP has a event sponsorship deal going on and it's pretty sweet. That's something I am seriously going to look into for a little C-tier I have coming up this fall which will be trophy only / AM only.

-Dave