LocalsRoute
Par Member
If these do make it to a public course, how long will they last? Since they are made from aluminum Im sure there will be dirtbags stealing them for recycle.
Arroyo Disc Golf Basket
- Thread starter bergdawg
- Start date
jimbosprint
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
- Messages
- 1,820
Thanks Kevin! I saw your basket at worlds and it looks really well engineered. Some of us actually appreciate your hard work and innovation. Some like to argue about things they have never seen and know nothing about. Good luck and stay positive.
jimbosprint
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
- Messages
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I am also curious about anything extra ADS might offer to prevent theft. And how well it would hold up to a drunk idiot dancing on the basket.
Are you talking from personal experience or is this hypothetical?
I spent time putting at it personally. I watched multiple people with multiple putting styles putt on it all week.
I think that opinions based on experience are a great basis actually...
Actually I believe my point was that basketball doesn't change. You know what major changes have occured in the entire time basketball has been around?
1. A 3-point line
2. They use bottomless baskets or "hoops"
3. They standardized the court size
That's about it. All the other rules go back to when the game was founded.
Actually I'll say again - since you're referencing me. I spent time putting on this basket and watching many other people with different styles putt on this basket. I hardly call that "zero" evidence.
Also - as far as the final 9 scenario - isn't the more parsimonious answer that the Arroyo guys put the basket in a convienent place near the starting tent, and the pros could therefore putt and hear their names called? The practice baskets were all the way across the parking lot (for good reason). It didn't have anything to do with being the "best basket" - that wouldn't even make sense since the course they were playing didn't have them installed.
Kevin,
Thanks for the response - and nice spin
I would again like to reiterate, since I'm getting TL
R'd anyway that I'm not bashing the innovation of the basket or the entrepreneurial spirit of the undertaking. I am not against changes to the basket as we know it.I'm just against the design of a basket which favors one type of throw over another. I think there is great potential in what y'all have done, I'm just asking that as entrepreneurs you be responsible guardians of the game at the same time and be careful to design a product which doesn't disadvantage one type of player over the other. I find one of the great things about this sport is the ability of multiple people to execute different flight paths/patterns with a disc and still score competitively.
Again, I love the innovation and I've never once said that the basket needs to stay the same or be left untouched. If Steady Ed himself had done that we wouldn't be where we are today with this sport.
lowracks
Eagle Member
Are you always this afraid of change?
MrHighlandPark
Par Member
Three seconds in the paint, outlawing then allowing zone defense, disallowing arm checking on the perimeter, changing the length of the three point line (and back again), changing to a different ball (and back again), automatic free throws after fifth foul, the shot clock (huge change!), widening the lane (twice). None of this stuff was around for peach basket games in Springfield.
Triflusal
* Ace Member *
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- Oct 3, 2010
- Messages
- 3,335
you shouldn't have to change your putt for different types of equipment (barring practice baskets, those are for practice not for realz). golfers dont have to change their putt for different size holes. its great that a basket reduces spit outs, but if it is at a cost of a different spit out, what is the point?
The Hammer
* Ace Member *
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2008
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I think that the arguement that this basket will favor one type of putt over another is moot. All baskets favor some putting styles over others. The different courses around here all use different baskets. Some of those baskets catch high putts better than others, while others are more friendly on left side putts. This is merely another basket. If you can't adapt to this one, what makes you think you can adapt to one of the other countless basket styles?
The only constant in this game, and others, is change. Get used to it, or get left behind.
The only constant in this game, and others, is change. Get used to it, or get left behind.
Guys, just so all of you know, there are three of us that created the Vortex. Of those three I'm the only spin putter. Kevin and Kyle both push putt (which some of you are saying our basket rejects more without having tried it). So I find it a little interesting that two push putters DESIGNED the product, yet some of you still doubt. So, I'd like to explain what we've done with the basket and why, to hopefully clear up all this controversy and leave it up to you guys to make your putts.
First we'll start with the outer set. On current baskets the outer set of chains hangs directly from the chain rack, down to a small ring around the center pole. This set of chains tends to be more tense than you expect and will often kick putts off to the side or bounce them back out of the basket. With the Vortex, we've added a few links to each outer chain, and elevated the ring they connect to, to create a droop in the outer chains. This aids in grabbing putts that are a little low left/right because there are now chains filling a hole in the current target area. The droop in our outer chains also makes them much less tense than those on any other basket; this allows us to have 20 outer chains (more than any other basket on the market), while aiding both spin putters and push putters alike. For spin putters, the decrease in tension allows their putts to penetrate the outer chains and become trapped in the envelope between the inner an outer chains. In the case of push putters, we feel we've actually done what Steady Ed intended with the first basket, just better. Our outer chains have such a small amount of tension (this does not mean weight, they still have stopping power) that even the softest of push putts become slightly wrapped in them and then drop straight down into the basket as the chain returns to its drooping position. So yes, the Vortex may technically aid spin putters more than push putters, but it helps both of them more than any other basket.
The inner chains of the Vortex, as many of you have seen, are very different from any other basket. There were a few goals with the inner set of chains... the first is obvious: spit outs off the pole. You can look at any basket other than the Vortex and see definite gaps (all the way through the basket) between the inner and outer chains. You can hit a medium power putt that passes the outer chains, hits the inner chains, then hits the pole and flips vertical and passes out of the basket. That isn't fair and it takes away from the fun of the game. It's not like you did a full wind-up for your putt. Or you could be a top pro like Paul McBeth at the 2011 BSF and hit a beautiful 50'+ putt out of a pine tree, only to have it dribble out the back of the basket, potentially costing cash for something that wasn't your fault. With the Vortex we've removed all of those gaps from play, essentially preventing spit outs. There is not a gap large enough in our basket to spit through. Also, because the inner chains on the Vortex are interconnected this helps to disperse the force of a putt around the whole network, instead of just a few chains... a flaw of current baskets. In addition, the inner set of chains does not have the amount of tension that people think it does. It IS more tense than the outer set on the Vortex, but still less tense than the outer chains on any other basket. The tension is very similar to current inner chains.
The above mentioned changes are just what we've done to the functionality of the basket. We also took into account basket aesthetics, as well as the longevity of your putters/discs.
If you look at the cage of any basket out there right now, you'll notice that all the spokes are welded to the middle of the sleeve, leaving an inch or two of metal around the pole that your putter can lose chunks of plastic on as it dives into the basket. With the Vortex we've welded our spokes directly to the top of the sleeve so that there are no more sharp edges to hit anywhere in the basket. We also removed the nubs of the basket for that same reason, in addition to our belief that a basket without them is more true to the roots of golf. If you miss a putt wide in ball golf, your ball can easily roll around the rim of the cup and out. If you putt wide on our basket, you can skip off the rim more easily and further than a basket with nubs. We acknowledge this, and designed the basket that way. Our chains catch better, so we reward the player for hitting the target area, not for being "close enough" and getting caught up on the rim.
Because we believe in our chain design we have also taken 2cm out of the diameter of our basket. This gives the Vortex a more sleek, cylindrical look than any other basket, and puts more pressure on the player to hit the target area.
And that's what we want: players making putts. The Vortex should make the game more competitive and force players of every level to up their mental game, knowing if they HAVE to hit the target area, because anyone else who does will gain a stroke if the player doesn't. This will also aid you on any course that doesn't have Vortex baskets because you'll be putting at the center mass of the target area more often. All in all, you'll see them out there on courses soon and we really hope you reserve some judgement for the first time you actually play on one. But in the meantime, like Kevin said, we're here to answer any questions you may still have... but I also hope I cleared a few things up.
Logan
First we'll start with the outer set. On current baskets the outer set of chains hangs directly from the chain rack, down to a small ring around the center pole. This set of chains tends to be more tense than you expect and will often kick putts off to the side or bounce them back out of the basket. With the Vortex, we've added a few links to each outer chain, and elevated the ring they connect to, to create a droop in the outer chains. This aids in grabbing putts that are a little low left/right because there are now chains filling a hole in the current target area. The droop in our outer chains also makes them much less tense than those on any other basket; this allows us to have 20 outer chains (more than any other basket on the market), while aiding both spin putters and push putters alike. For spin putters, the decrease in tension allows their putts to penetrate the outer chains and become trapped in the envelope between the inner an outer chains. In the case of push putters, we feel we've actually done what Steady Ed intended with the first basket, just better. Our outer chains have such a small amount of tension (this does not mean weight, they still have stopping power) that even the softest of push putts become slightly wrapped in them and then drop straight down into the basket as the chain returns to its drooping position. So yes, the Vortex may technically aid spin putters more than push putters, but it helps both of them more than any other basket.
The inner chains of the Vortex, as many of you have seen, are very different from any other basket. There were a few goals with the inner set of chains... the first is obvious: spit outs off the pole. You can look at any basket other than the Vortex and see definite gaps (all the way through the basket) between the inner and outer chains. You can hit a medium power putt that passes the outer chains, hits the inner chains, then hits the pole and flips vertical and passes out of the basket. That isn't fair and it takes away from the fun of the game. It's not like you did a full wind-up for your putt. Or you could be a top pro like Paul McBeth at the 2011 BSF and hit a beautiful 50'+ putt out of a pine tree, only to have it dribble out the back of the basket, potentially costing cash for something that wasn't your fault. With the Vortex we've removed all of those gaps from play, essentially preventing spit outs. There is not a gap large enough in our basket to spit through. Also, because the inner chains on the Vortex are interconnected this helps to disperse the force of a putt around the whole network, instead of just a few chains... a flaw of current baskets. In addition, the inner set of chains does not have the amount of tension that people think it does. It IS more tense than the outer set on the Vortex, but still less tense than the outer chains on any other basket. The tension is very similar to current inner chains.
The above mentioned changes are just what we've done to the functionality of the basket. We also took into account basket aesthetics, as well as the longevity of your putters/discs.
If you look at the cage of any basket out there right now, you'll notice that all the spokes are welded to the middle of the sleeve, leaving an inch or two of metal around the pole that your putter can lose chunks of plastic on as it dives into the basket. With the Vortex we've welded our spokes directly to the top of the sleeve so that there are no more sharp edges to hit anywhere in the basket. We also removed the nubs of the basket for that same reason, in addition to our belief that a basket without them is more true to the roots of golf. If you miss a putt wide in ball golf, your ball can easily roll around the rim of the cup and out. If you putt wide on our basket, you can skip off the rim more easily and further than a basket with nubs. We acknowledge this, and designed the basket that way. Our chains catch better, so we reward the player for hitting the target area, not for being "close enough" and getting caught up on the rim.
Because we believe in our chain design we have also taken 2cm out of the diameter of our basket. This gives the Vortex a more sleek, cylindrical look than any other basket, and puts more pressure on the player to hit the target area.
And that's what we want: players making putts. The Vortex should make the game more competitive and force players of every level to up their mental game, knowing if they HAVE to hit the target area, because anyone else who does will gain a stroke if the player doesn't. This will also aid you on any course that doesn't have Vortex baskets because you'll be putting at the center mass of the target area more often. All in all, you'll see them out there on courses soon and we really hope you reserve some judgement for the first time you actually play on one. But in the meantime, like Kevin said, we're here to answer any questions you may still have... but I also hope I cleared a few things up.
Logan
scarwig
Eagle Member
the nubs can keep you out of the basket just as easily.
Violets caddy
Double Eagle Member
I love the concept, can't wait to try one.
And not for the putting aspect because.. well putting doesn't really seem much different on it. The vast majority of missed putts aren't because you hit dead center and got a bad bounce they happen because you clank the front of the basket, just barely catch one or two chains on the outside edge or just flat out airball and miss everything.
I like it for that 260 foot buzzz shot I drilled dead center last week that bounced 10 feet back towards me.
I'll love it even more if the materials and processing of them are cheaper thus resulting in a more affordable basket
And not for the putting aspect because.. well putting doesn't really seem much different on it. The vast majority of missed putts aren't because you hit dead center and got a bad bounce they happen because you clank the front of the basket, just barely catch one or two chains on the outside edge or just flat out airball and miss everything.
I like it for that 260 foot buzzz shot I drilled dead center last week that bounced 10 feet back towards me.
I'll love it even more if the materials and processing of them are cheaper thus resulting in a more affordable basket
Tacoma, I honestly forgot that you brought up that point. I hope it didn't sound like I was attacking you. I only brought up basketball because I grew up surrounded by it. This is an excellent article on the changes from the original rules. And notice one thing that isn't a part of the original rules. There was no dribbling.
I do realize your concerns with the basket, and how they might accommodate others to a higher degree than yourself. I still think that people who throw hard will lose just as many strokes per round because of "blow-by"s. They might even have more "blow-by"s because of the lack of nubs on the rim.
Pics or it didn't happen.
I would actually like to see close up pics of the details you described in this paragraph. You might not want to post them yet to create marketing value, so I understand. But when you release them, I would enjoy seeing close up pics of the parts you described here.
The Hammer
* Ace Member *
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2008
- Messages
- 4,860
DaKine,
Two things:
1) I want one of these. Do you have a mailing list or something that will let me know when they are available? I was about to buy a Chainstar, but think I will hold off for this thing.
2) Off topic, were you at the Memorial? I think we played together the second round at Vista.
Two things:
1) I want one of these. Do you have a mailing list or something that will let me know when they are available? I was about to buy a Chainstar, but think I will hold off for this thing.
2) Off topic, were you at the Memorial? I think we played together the second round at Vista.
gcr_russell
* Ace Member *
Maybe its because were Arizonans.
1) me too.
2) I played with one of the other founders, Kevin Huver, the 2nd round at Vista.
ManU
* Ace Member *
I want 54
but I have to get course approvals first
and then convince the schmegs around here that not everything has to say Innova
but I have to get course approvals first
and then convince the schmegs around here that not everything has to say Innova
The Hammer
* Ace Member *
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2008
- Messages
- 4,860
Since both Graham and I want baskets, and we played with your business partners at The Memorial; I assume we are entitled to a 50% discount. Please confirm this.....
We'll get some close-ups and more detailed pictures out soon. Right now we're working on our quality control tests, and when we have a really clean model I'll get some pics up for you guys.
Lol, hey David... yeah we did play together at the Memorial this year. And the Vortex will be our for sale in a little over a month, so I do recommend holding off. :thmbup: Like I said in an above post... we're running through all of our final checks. It'll take a little bit of time, but we want to make sure that we're putting out the best quality product. We'll keep everyone appraised on DGCR, Facebook, and our website, so stay tuned and keep in touch with us.
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