DGPT: 2020 The Preserve Championship July 3-5

[Steve West]

ah, then you misread/misunderstood my post. I was pointing out that testing the wind DOES count against the 30 seconds. It isn't part of determining the lie.

So we are all in agreement. Which side did we take?

 

[the_lung]

I disagree with one claim Simon made -- that good shots were rewarded and bad shots punished. The second part, "bad shots punished: is hogwash. I SAW Eagle make not one, but TWO bad shots on a hole and still get the birdie. (and before you ask, I'll need time to go back and find it on the video -- I'm at work now.) That is a problem with courses designed like this.

I couldn't agree more with araytx. Not only Simon, but anyone else saying that bad shots were punished on this course, is full of hogwash. Except for hole#17, you could be severely offline on just about any other hole on the entire course and not get punished at all. You had a marginally longer upshot, which for these players, was nothing.

 

[BillFleming]

30 second rule. My Opinion.

I think this is a tough one to call, not everyone is watching the clock when a player steps up to throw. But some 'violations' are obvious.

Here's how I think it should work:
A player has met all the requirements for the time to start (I'm not going to restate the rules that have already been discussed). The player takes a long time in their routine/prep to throw. I call them on the time. They say they were distracted. I ask what distracted them as I didn't see any distraction. They state their case. I ask the other card members what they think (distracted or not?). They make their decision and the appropriate action is taken. Guess what? The player now has 30 seconds to make their throw (regardless of whether there was a penalty, warning, or nothing).

How much time over all has been wasted/taken up? Is it really worth calling a time violation? I think a 'warning' after the player throws is a better idea. The player throws, I say "you took over 30 seconds for that throw, would you please shorten your routine". Then if it continues, you call it.

I really think the issue on not calling a time violation is that it will delay things even longer. Even taking a minute would have been shorter than the time involved in calling the violation, discussing it, and stepping up to take the throw again.

 

[Steve West]

30 second rule. My Opinion.

I think this is a tough one to call, not everyone is watching the clock when a player steps up to throw. But some 'violations' are obvious.

Here's how I think it should work:
A player has met all the requirements for the time to start (I'm not going to restate the rules that have already been discussed). The player takes a long time in their routine/prep to throw. I call them on the time. They say they were distracted. I ask what distracted them as I didn't see any distraction. They state their case. I ask the other card members what they think (distracted or not?). They make their decision and the appropriate action is taken. Guess what? The player now has 30 seconds to make their throw (regardless of whether there was a penalty, warning, or nothing).

How much time over all has been wasted/taken up? Is it really worth calling a time violation? I think a 'warning' after the player throws is a better idea. The player throws, I say "you took over 30 seconds for that throw, would you please shorten your routine". Then if it continues, you call it.

I really think the issue on not calling a time violation is that it will delay things even longer. Even taking a minute would have been shorter than the time involved in calling the violation, discussing it, and stepping up to take the throw again.

You should not make the call while it is the player's turn to throw. That is distracting the player, don't do that. Wait until after the throw is complete.

 

[oldmandiscer]

I agree generally with Simon only that good shots were not screwed over like on some places. Landing 1 foot on one side or another of a rope is silly. Saying that bad shots were not punished ENOUGH on quite a few holes. You throw a poor shot and still have a easy birdie upshot? That's not punishing the poor shot. If you have 100 foot wide fairways you need to make the holes long. Not 665. That's an easy birdie hole for advanced players. Not at all challenging the top pro field.

Ideally most holes would fall between 20-40% birdie. Many holes were pushing 60%!

 

[biscoe]

When would you start the clock?

Marking of the lie would be the logical place, at that point the question becomes what is a "reasonable time" to reach your lie. No way to fully escape subjectivity I suppose.

 

[biscoe]

Your turn now - what's your source.

My argument for the player being the sole determining factor under the rules at this point is the simple fact that, as you said, what one individual finds distracting another may not. If I am standing there thinking about cheesecake I am in fact distracted whether in the eyes of my cardmates or not. It would be a simple enough fix for the RC to improve the verbiage.

A rule under which one should "allow for variation between people" is not really a rule to begin with.

 

[Steve West]

Marking of the lie would be the logical place, at that point the question becomes what is a "reasonable time" to reach your lie. No way to fully escape subjectivity I suppose.

I've played with people who think that is when the clock starts. They stand at their thrown disc with the mini in their hand. Motionless.

Of course, the thrown disc on the ground marks the lie, so technically the clock would start when the disc comes to rest in-bounds.

Rule-making ain't easy.

Yes, there is no way to avoid subjectivity, but 30 seconds is a loooong time. Try it sometime during a real round. Most players take 8 seconds. If a player takes longer than 30 seconds, is there really any question that they are too slow?

 

[Ryan P.]

Landing 1 foot on one side or another of a rope is silly.

Maybe I misunderstand your point, but how else should one determine what is in bounds and out of bounds besides a clear demarcation of what is and isn't in bounds?

If you're simply saying that artificial OB is bad, then that's a fair point, but it doesn't make sense in this context.

 

[Jah Plastifari]

My thought on distractions and time to putt is that once I mark my lie and take my stance, I'm on the clock. If someone or something distracts me, I always back out of my stance and say what the distraction is and that I'm going to wait until it is gone. Adding a requirement that any distraction encountered requires the player to back out of their stance seems reasonable and failing to do so means you are still on the clock.

Staying in your stance and pumping the disc for more than 30 seconds before putting is ridiculous and should be stopped.

 

[nothinbuttree]

I think many are arguing over the letter of the rules, when clearly the spirit of the rule is being broken. Nikko isn't spending a lot of time judging the wind or marking his lie. Or waiting for distractions to clear up. We are simply straining at gnats, IMHO.

Thing is, if the violations are so blatant as some put forth, why aren't his cardmates ever calling it? Maybe if anyone here knows someone that has played with Nikko in a tournament, they could ask?

My hunch is its the same general reasons that no one seems to call falling putts. It is difficult for players to self-officiate each other. Everyone is busy mentally preparing for their shots, assessing their own lies, the wind, etc. Taking their own focus off themselves and onto someone else is probably very challenging.

There is also a camaraderie at the highest level of the sport (for the most part), and that probably makes it difficult. Again, its putting the players in a bad position. I know they are competing against each other, but I rarely see any sport where players applaud and high five their opponents' great shots like disc golf. And I wouldn't want to destroy that--its one of the great things about our sport.

So no answers here other than having roving officials doing their own timing and warning and watching for foot faults and falling putts, but its probably one of those things that needs to be taken out of the players' hands.

 

[roblee]

Sand is a twisted ankle just waiting to happen. It shouldn't be that way. Cover up or remove the sand and make it a 'growth' rough (weeds/long grass/whatever)....but please, stop with the sand.

If that were true beaches would be littered with crippled people.

 

[Lazerface]

Landing 1 foot on one side or another of a rope is silly.

Why?

 

[oldmandiscer]

Why?

Because it's bringing in a large luck factor. I think that was what Simon was saying in that luck played little into the results at the Preserve. The person who played best won. Same thing with making baskets that don't cut through. You don't want to lose because the baskets are cutting through or bouncing out often.

Adding artificial OB just to raise the scores is silly. It's a poorly designed course if you have to rope everything off. Sorry Winthrop Gold, etc...

 

[robdeforge]

If I am standing there thinking about cheesecake I am in fact distracted whether in the eyes of my cardmates or not.

"The playing area is clear and free of distractions."

your brain isn't the playing area, dude. if somebody tried to pull this excuse on me in a tournament, and forcefully argued it, I'd probably push to have them disqualified for cheating.

 

[BeRReGoN]

I'm not a fan of rope OB but one foot in a river or on safe ground is it about luck? To me it is about when to take risk and know where you really don't want to miss.

 

[the_lung]

I agree generally with Simon only that good shots were not screwed over like on some places. Landing 1 foot on one side or another of a rope is silly. Saying that bad shots were not punished ENOUGH on quite a few holes. You throw a poor shot and still have a easy birdie upshot? That's not punishing the poor shot. If you have 100 foot wide fairways you need to make the holes long. Not 665. That's an easy birdie hole for advanced players. Not at all challenging the top pro field.

Ideally most holes would fall between 20-40% birdie. Many holes were pushing 60%!

Couldn't agree with oldmandiscer enough here. Did they even have any preliminary events on this course to test out the layout? I saw all the chatter about the course playing with a uncharacteristic lack of wind. But now, far more so than the course playing without a lack of scoring separation, the frustrating part is both players in the tournament and observers saying that the course punished poor shots. By any measure, it clearly didn't. Simon had to delete his Instagram posts about it because he got 400+ replies basically telling him that such a line of thinking was delusional.

 

[ToddL]

Landing 1 foot on one side or another of a rope is silly

Landing 1 foot on one side or another of a rope is the EXACT same thing as landing 1 foot into a road, or landing 1 foot into a lake, or landing 1 foot across the property boundary. It's the players responsibility to know where the OB lines are and to strategically throw their shots so they won't land in an OB position.

The rest of your post is dead on, though.

 

[sandelius]

I missed basket by 1 feet on my C1 putt. It didn't count. Silly rules.

 

[oldmandiscer]

Landing 1 foot on one side or another of a rope is the EXACT same thing as landing 1 foot into a road, or landing 1 foot into a lake, or landing 1 foot across the property boundary. It's the players responsibility to know where the OB lines are and to strategically throw their shots so they won't land in an OB position.

The rest of your post is dead on, though.

It's a crappy course though if they have to add artificial ropes to pretend like lakes and roads are everywhere.