[Other] Do manufacturers deliberately make X-Outs

[Jugular]

Given how many X-Outs and F2s there seem to be I suspect that many manufacturers create them deliberately rather than it being accidental or part of a 'normal' manufacturing process. Of course there must be some wastage and occasional faulty equipment but it seems too common for any efficient process to produce. So too with double stamping a disc. I assume this is a method to X-Out a disc. Watching how discs are stamped in Paige Pierce's video on creating the Fierce it's clear no-one would 'accidentally' double-stamp a disc using this method. There is a cost, both time and materials in adding a second stamp so why would manufacturers pay that price?

They would do it so they can create two tiers of disc price. That way those players who are more price sensitive will still buy discs at the lower price and those who can afford the higher price will still pay more for the 'more perfect' discs. This way they don't lose out on the sales of the lower priced disc (where they still make a profit) and they can maximize the profit on the higher priced discs. It also has the side-benefit of gaining greater market penetration by having more discs out on courses being thrown and bagged.

Has anyone seen confirmation of this as a business practice within Disc Golf?

 

[GripEnemy]

Switching foil colors is one reason to stamp more than once.

I disagree with your hypothesis.

 

[Three Putt]

I've talked to manufacturers who have told me that discontinuing a plastic or changing a plastic had to do with the high % of X-outs that resulted from runs of that plastic and trying to reduce that. They always seemed like a by-product of making discs that somebody figured out a way to sell rather than anything deliberate.

I also was told one big batch of double stamps was 100% due to a guy running the stamp machine who wasn't paying attention to what he was doing. :|

 

[Jugular]

Switching foil colors is one reason to stamp more than once.

I disagree with your hypothesis.

I'm genuinely interested what is the cause of that. Does the foil leave residue on the stamping machine? Surely not else it would continually mess up each new stamp.

Still, that's one disc per change (isn't it?). The impression I get from shop stock is that X-Outs represent something like 25%-50% of discs sold. Is there any actual data on that to show my impression is wrong?

 

[Jugular]

I've talked to manufacturers who have told me that discontinuing a plastic or changing a plastic had to do with the high % of X-outs that resulted from runs of that plastic and trying to reduce that. They always seemed like a by-product of making discs that somebody figured out a way to sell rather than anything deliberate.

I also was told one big batch of double stamps was 100% due to a guy running the stamp machine who wasn't paying attention to what he was doing. :|

Ok. Still sounds like a once off for an employee. How about once every employee that works in the factory. Still doesn't seem like many discs being produced. If there's a loss inherent in selling these imperfect discs surely there'd be more QA being done and feedback into systems and processes to reduce these.

 

[biscoe]

I'm genuinely interested what is the cause of that. Does the foil leave residue on the stamping machine? Surely not else it would continually mess up each new stamp.

Still, that's one disc per change (isn't it?). The impression I get from shop stock is that X-Outs represent something like 25%-50% of discs sold. Is there any actual data on that to show my impression is wrong?

While i have no recent data to back it I believe what that shop stock indicates is cheap ownership... I would be surprised if X-Outs account for as much as 10% of discs sold all told. Many years ago i used to do a stamp that had a lot of broad areas of coverage for the hot stamp- Innova hated it because it caused a lot of mis-stamps. They gave you a choice of whether to purchase the mis-stamps or not and I always did. Those numbers were probably around 10% on the high side. I can't imagine that the hot stamp process/materials have not improved at least some over the last 20 years.

I think most X-outs now are molding blems rather than mis-stamps but i still can't see the number being anywhere near 25%.

 

[hurricaine]

i work in injection mold manufacturing. just not plastic. They are not purposely making these. We have so many parts that we reject due to cosmetics. Injection mold machines and tools are beyond touchy when dialing them in. Dialing them in happens damn near every material change as well.

 

[Cranky]

I've seen double stamps called set-up discs. I always assumed there's a bit of "tuning" to get the stamp correct for a given level of coverage and plastic type. So there's a dozen (maybe) discs with double stamps that are otherwise perfect.

 

[Three Putt]

The impression I get from shop stock is that X-Outs represent something like 25%-50% of discs sold.

If that was the case, big online seller like Disc Golf Center would be swimming in X-outs. I think if you have a shop with that a high % of X-Outs, they are choosing to stock that many X-Outs.

 

[Jugular]

If that was the case, big online seller like Disc Golf Center would be swimming in X-outs. I think if you have a shop with that a high % of X-Outs, they are choosing to stock that many X-Outs.

Or could be a low stock shop and they don't actually sell many of the X-Outs hence being remaindered.

As I wrote my initial thought I figured my impression by looking at shop stock was not necessarily going to reflect sales volumes.

Thanks for the info everyone it helps me understand better the process of manufacturing the discs. Also, if it's all so unpredictable it explains better why Innova's discs may exhibit variation between each run.

So, they may not be manufactured deliberately, but I still contend that selling them off the way they do still drives profit.

 

[Three Putt]

So, they may not be manufactured deliberately, but I still contend that selling them off the way they do still drives profit.

For sure, but it's not unheard of. My main guitar is a blem; I saved a couple hundred bucks and it plays great. It's just not going to win a beauty contest, but it wasn't going to when I was done with it anyway. Same sort of deal; it lets the manufacturer make a little off something they otherwise would have to toss.

 

[JuanA]

The X-Outs I've bought all had visible issues with the plastic like off-color specs molded in, or discoloration around the rim.

I just assumed the double stamp was a sure-fire way to mark them as factory seconds.

 

[Sydex]

Injection mold machines and tools are beyond touchy when dialing them in. Dialing them in happens damn near every material change as well.

I was told by a guy sponsored by Innova (maybe Millennium, I don't recall anymore) in the late 2000s that this is the primary reason x-outs happen. What he said was they'll automatically reject the first few from the mold while it stabilizes in temperature during a run and also reject the first few when they get a new shipment of plastic while they dial in the specifics.

Secondary reasons I've always read were either to just random cosmetic issues or stamp issues.

I seem to think this is the case. I have nearly 20 x-out Teebirds that I couldn't save my life trying to find an imperfection in the discs other than the fact it has an X or the F2 stamp on it. Most of the F2 stamped ones were also bought around the time Innova switched from the stiff as F**k Star material to the softer one they run now. The rest are Metal Flake and I similarly can't see what's wrong with them.

 

[Rol6566]

If they can sell a standard disc for $15, and X-Out for $10....why would they only want to sell x-outs?

 

[Moose33]

I was told by a guy sponsored by Innova (maybe Millennium, I don't recall anymore) in the late 2000s that this is the primary reason x-outs happen. What he said was they'll automatically reject the first few from the mold while it stabilizes in temperature during a run and also reject the first few when they get a new shipment of plastic while they dial in the specifics.

Secondary reasons I've always read were either to just random cosmetic issues or stamp issues.

I seem to think this is the case. I have nearly 20 x-out Teebirds that I couldn't save my life trying to find an imperfection in the discs other than the fact it has an X or the F2 stamp on it. Most of the F2 stamped ones were also bought around the time Innova switched from the stiff as F**k Star material to the softer one they run now. The rest are Metal Flake and I similarly can't see what's wrong with them.

I have some metal flake ones with dark pieces in them and they are x outs. Maybe if there are a few of those that are too visible they don't think it can be full price? In clear discs dark specs seem to be a common problem.

 

[Casey 1988]

I was told by a guy sponsored by Innova (maybe Millennium, I don't recall anymore) in the late 2000s that this is the primary reason x-outs happen. What he said was they'll automatically reject the first few from the mold while it stabilizes in temperature during a run and also reject the first few when they get a new shipment of plastic while they dial in the specifics.

Secondary reasons I've always read were either to just random cosmetic issues or stamp issues.

I seem to think this is the case. I have nearly 20 x-out Teebirds that I couldn't save my life trying to find an imperfection in the discs other than the fact it has an X or the F2 stamp on it. Most of the F2 stamped ones were also bought around the time Innova switched from the stiff as F**k Star material to the softer one they run now. The rest are Metal Flake and I similarly can't see what's wrong with them.

I have also seen Mold up Issues, the disc needs to get scrapped and did not so the plastic ends up F2 in the mold. However there are discs like the Star Shark that 80% of the discs made would be F2 due to Mega flashing on a disc or the plastic came out too soft, almost G-Star, or with dents in the wing to the point the Innova company stops making the disc in that specific plastic as the discs never sell due to basically half or more of the discs in stock are coming out ready for F2.

If I ever get F2 it will most likely be for the Shark 3, the Standerd disc seems to be getting hard to find (the single midrange mold I use as a true midrange in my game) as it seems that mold might be getting replaced by the Lion.

 

[Twmccoy]

Innova purposely made a bunch of X outs when Paul McBeth left. Suddenly they had a ton of several different molds with his name on them they couldn't really sell anymore. That's why there are a lot of "Commander" Thunderbirds and Roc3s around.

 

[Hampstead]

The Thundervant was a premium price x-out.

 

[Casey 1988]

The Thundervant was a premium price x-out.

So will the Destroyer 3 disc be either premium or Stock run, they look like average dome to flat top middle discs.

 

[Jugular]

If they can sell a standard disc for $15, and X-Out for $10....why would they only want to sell x-outs?

No-one said they only want to sell x-outs. It's that having x-outs in the mix increases their revenue.

Say you turn up with $25 of free cash. You have a chance to buy a $15 "perfect" disc and a $10 "x-out" disc rather than two $10 "x-out" discs or just one $15 "perfect" disc. $25 > $20 > $15. Especially since the alternative is throwing them away, so from a stock perspective it's free additional revenue.