Keller
* Ace Member *
^ SD86, is that you?
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[Other] Do manufacturers deliberately make X-Outs
- Thread starter Jugular
- Start date
Marmoset
* Ace Member *
After reading a few of the comments I think people don't realize there's a difference between X-outs (also called factory seconds) and misprints.
X-outs are unintentional manufacturing defects like flakes inside the plastic, sunken bubbles in the rim, cosmetic blemishes that don't affect the disc's structure, etc.
Misprints are discs that were manufactured correctly but the stamp got messed up in one way or another. A very common version of this is an incomplete stamp that has drop outs. To make sure the misprint is easily recognizable and not sold to a customer as a regular disc, they will sometimes stamp a second time so it is double stamped.
To my knowledge, X-outs are never produced intentionally. Misprints, however, are sometimes intentionally produced. When a stamp technician is setting up for a job, they will sometimes practice the machine settings on a disc knowing that the practice desk will be a misprint. This is intentional and is the price of doing business.
X-outs are unintentional manufacturing defects like flakes inside the plastic, sunken bubbles in the rim, cosmetic blemishes that don't affect the disc's structure, etc.
Misprints are discs that were manufactured correctly but the stamp got messed up in one way or another. A very common version of this is an incomplete stamp that has drop outs. To make sure the misprint is easily recognizable and not sold to a customer as a regular disc, they will sometimes stamp a second time so it is double stamped.
To my knowledge, X-outs are never produced intentionally. Misprints, however, are sometimes intentionally produced. When a stamp technician is setting up for a job, they will sometimes practice the machine settings on a disc knowing that the practice desk will be a misprint. This is intentional and is the price of doing business.
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Back to the idea of deliberately making them, if you have $30 of "free" (?) cash and the option to buy two X-outs for $20, that would cost them $10. :| Whether you have $25 or $30 in your pocket is not a known set value, so they can't set pricing based on that.
What you are overlooking is that disc golf has multiple price points established with multiple plastics. They don't need a $10 X-out to hit your $10 sale, they already have DX and Pro plastic discs that (depending on where you are) hit $10 or below. So they don't need to make less on a disc they label X-out, they already have entire runs of discs that they make less on. X-outs and misprints are just them making some money on something that otherwise they can't sell.
Jugular
Birdie Member
'free' cash as in disposable income, surely you've heard that second term before?
Marketing shows us that people buy beyond what they need. So, you're right that if a customer wants two specific discs, confers no value to 'perfect' discs over x-outs and the identical discs are available in both x-out and non-x-out variants the seller may lose out on $10. The reality is that consumers value more of a thing than they necessarily need. If this theoretical consumer has $30 of disposable income they're most likely to buy three discs and so you still get the $30. Not to mention that consumers of discs tend to value properly stamped discs more than x-outs.
On multiple price points, different plastics feel and fly differently and vary in durability. It's not for no reason that less durable plastics are priced lower. Offer someone a DX Destroyer vs a Star Destroyer and you think their only thought will be the price?
My only remaining question is do manufacturers still make a profit on x-out discs on a per piece basis.
I honestly have no idea where you are going with all of that. You seem to be arguing that a business would set a price point for a product and then deliberately undercut that price point, and you have justified that in your head.
The reality is that X-outs are just part of the manufacturing process and selling those for some money is more profitable than making no money from them, so they sell them. Not a big deal, other types of businesses do the same thing. You are just really overthinking it, but whatever.
Sydex
Eagle Member
Thanks for putting this out. I see a lot of people confuse the two as well. I, and others, also have a tendency to just lump them together into the same category as discs with a defect or otherwise not stock discs.
I know x-outs are generally not produced intentionally, but I have heard from one direct-ish source and from secondary sources of people in injection molding that they'll run a few in the mold while they're setting it up for the day before producing the ones that are considered final product. However, how ever many that may or may not be I haven't the slightest clue.
Jugular
Birdie Member
I'm basically trying to relate price optimisation and price elasticity to disc golf disc sales and failing to explain it well enough. I know DG sales teams wouldn't be using full scale A/B pricing but the theory is still somewhat applicable. They have a spare asset with near $0 cost (it can be treated as an expense of each run) so the price they choose to set is an interesting thing to consider... for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_optimization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_elasticity_of_demand
I've noticed that Discraft seconds/x-outs are bizarrely difficult to find. I know their factory store sells some, but there still seems to be a lack of them where I would expect them on sites that sell lots of seconds/x-outs. Anybody have an explanation on that? Maybe I just haven't looked in the right place, but logically I suspect them of either having lower standards or a strange god who requires a very specific tribute.
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I don't know what contributes to this, but even the X outs from them I've seen/had are not terrible. Mainly stamp issues and the occasional streaky bubble.
Casey 1988
Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!
It is a high quality standard that Discraft has compared to some other companies, this is due to the Discraft/DGA having humidity control something the other companies like Innova do not use so it is easier to have the discs come out more the same. I have one of my Current Impact when I bought it on Amazon in 2016 was a Mispirint where the stamp was on right but peeling flaking due to not getting stamped right. Disc is a fine flier and I saved $3 on the price of a new disc.
I funny that a small error in the stamp results in a X-OUT/FS disc. . .
But if a disc that suppose to be flat comes out domey thats just fine. . If a OS Disc like the Destroyer comes out US ..thats fine
You buy one that is soft and grippy. . .and another one in the same plastic is hard and slippery....thats fine
But i think manufacturers does this on purpose so it WILL be hard to find similar flying disc and you HAVE TO buy more and more of that mould to find the ones that flies the same
I can´t be THAT hard to mould a plastic disc after a standard. . . .i have hundreds of moulded plastic things around me and if you buy two of the same thing...they will look and feel the same
But if a disc that suppose to be flat comes out domey thats just fine. . If a OS Disc like the Destroyer comes out US ..thats fine
You buy one that is soft and grippy. . .and another one in the same plastic is hard and slippery....thats fine
But i think manufacturers does this on purpose so it WILL be hard to find similar flying disc and you HAVE TO buy more and more of that mould to find the ones that flies the same
I can´t be THAT hard to mould a plastic disc after a standard. . . .i have hundreds of moulded plastic things around me and if you buy two of the same thing...they will look and feel the same
Jugular
Birdie Member
Plastics do vary enormously, perhaps the plastics used for discs make it more difficult to maintain consistency?
I too find it a little odd, especially when the argument is different cooling rates etc. climate-controlled manufacturing is surely common place, perhaps it requires larger capital sums to maintain though.
jakebake91
* Ace Member *
As someone who worked in injection molding, building injection molds, I can tell you it's far harder than you realize. There are so many variables to attempt to control it's crazy. Also, the shape of a disc makes it inherently challenging to keep some of its attributes "standard". Dome and PLH are mostly what I'm talking about here. The large, mostly flat surface, in the flight plate surrounded by much thicker wall sections on the rim is a perfect scenario for warpage.
Also, certain disc manufacturers have different quality policies. One large company's apparent quality policy in particular bothers me greatly as a former toolmaker. To the point where I won't buy their discs because of it.
While it might be a challenge to produce discs the exact shape every single time, it's NOT hard to reject ones that are outside the norms you set. Example: ridiculously domed discs in a generally flat mold, or vice versa.
jakebake91
* Ace Member *
Haha. I don't (usually) like to go around bashing manufacturers. I have my options, they are entitled to theirs. Although you can probably infer from context which manufacturer I'm referring, I try not to do it directly by name.
Whoever it is must not be very INNOVAtive if they are still struggling with these inconsistencies. They could be a DESTROYER of the competition if they'd fix that problem, and completely ROC the competition like a BOSS.
I just wish I could figure out which company you're talking about.
jakebake91
* Ace Member *
Whoever it is must not be very INNOVAtive if they are still struggling with these inconsistencies. They could be a DESTROYER of the competition if they'd fix that problem, and completely ROC the competition like a BOSS.
I just wish I could figure out which company you're talking about.
***Stares at sky and whistles.....****
