OverthrowJosh here. AMA

[OverthrowJosh]

From my occasional perusing of DGCR threads I've seen a couple recurring misrepresentations of our goals and my lack of knowledge in the sport )i.e. "making stuff up") which is quite funny because it was all the misinformation spread about us on the nose angle thread that lead me here.

I was going to post some funny GIFs (mostly for @Brychanus ) but decided to get down to business instead.

Ask me anything you'd like. I'll respond to any reasonable inquiry assuming you keep my genitalia out of the conversation. I'd rather you ask me a blunt question than boldly assume ill motive on my part.

 

[Brychanus]

 

[SocraDeez]

What's up, feller. I haven't been following the nose angle debate much, so finally watched the video rustlin' everybody's jammies around here.



"This tip that Josh gave me. First and foremost, Josh is the one that came up with this verbal cue for throwing nose down."

First question, which is the verbal cue? Is it "flip it"? Is it "turn the key"?

Second, had you heard this cue before in disc golf coach speak? Anecdotally, I've heard turn the key discussed for years, but the implied instruction is the opposite of what Mikey-man demonstrated - you turn the key to lock the door/counterclockwise*. So, I'm interested in the genesis of how Overthrow may have flipped this "turn the key" advice to generally mean the opposite.

*it's not really an active movement cue thing, but more a positional/neuromuscular activation feeling. An obvious analogy would be how this positional/neuromuscular activation feeling mimics that of the brace foot. Also note how in daily life, when locking a door/turning a key counterclockwise, the elbow is most comfortable popping up, and, when turning a key clockwise/unlocking, the elbow is most comfortable popping down.

*edit* I'm looking to discuss swing theory here mainly. I work professionally in data analysis and am wholly uninterested in the TechDisc datums used by Mikey-man as evidence of the efficacy of the cue.

 

[Kennets]

As someone who has been following you for ages (or at least it feels like that lol), I've been on both sides of the "Spectre".

Your twirly bird got me insane amount of distance in literally no time (pinned comment on the video for reference) and i still resort to it when I'm working on form. plenty of other drills has been working VERY well for me.

Your "arm it" video didn't really reasonate with me and the discussion in here were actually productive in terms of me "getting it".. anyway, here's the questions:

1. How hard is it to boil down a video to a shorter video (10 minutes ish), when there's a huge possibility that things get lost in translation? Ie: your nose angle video and the way some people interpreted it in here.

2. Is coaching, online lessons and generally "the overthrow brand" your day job? If yes, how hard is it to maintain relevant in terms of studying mechanics and getting "new drills"? (Or in other words, keeping busy, creating content and getting clients). There's only "so much" to present to the viewer.

I so hope it made sense, English isn't my first language

Glad to see you in here josh. Hope you'll stick around, not just for the shit talk people dish out, but to come with your input on subjects..

 

[TheOtherBill]

I appreciate the effort y'all put into improving people's game, and I'm even subscribed despite not watching them (went Uli coaching instead).
So here's a question my wife would ask as she is in a scientific field. Your nose angle results seem to be the most controversial, so how have you backed up your results? Double-blind studies

 

[RowingBoats]

I have seen some things on your channel I like, and some that make me scratch my head In either case, welcome man and cool idea, I respect open discussion.

Im curious on the specifics of why you feel you have been misrepresented on nose-angle takes, so if you want to elaborate to clear that up that might help! I assume a lot of that might be related to the new 'flip it up' video.

I suppose I'd start with a simple question about that cue: Who is it intended for? Do you believe this is a movement pattern that is genuinely biomechanically sound, or are you providing a possible compensatory action that might work for people with otherwise flawed form?

The answer to that might just clear it up for me, because there is a place for helping people in that manner...but if you are going to defend flipping the disc up as an actual legitimate movement, I think that will open up some confusion lol

 

[StupendousMan]

I'm not one of the people you're speaking of, I just actually joined this site recently too lol, but I've got a couple questions

1) from what I can recall, you guys were relatively speaking very early adopters in utilizing tech disc. This far into the project, what are any negatives you've found from using it so much? And is it actually translating into lower scores and better golf beyond just throwing further

2) Disc golf coaching is still very much in its wild wild west stage. I don't coach disc golf, but I've coached track and field for 15 years. In Athletics I've noticed a few concepts stick around that are either flat out wrong or even potentially harmful despite the wealth of knowledge and prominent people actively disproving them. Have you noticed any similar items in disc golf given how unregulated coaching it is, and if so what would those items be?

 

[Brychanus]

Second, had you heard this cue before in disc golf coach speak? Anecdotally, I've heard turn the key discussed for years, but the implied instruction is the opposite of what Mikey-man demonstrated - you turn the key to lock the door/counterclockwise*. So, I'm interested in the genesis of how Overthrow may have flipped this "turn the key" advice to generally mean the opposite.

*it's not really an active movement cue thing, but more a positional/neuromuscular activation feeling. An obvious analogy would be how this positional/neuromuscular activation feeling mimics that of the brace foot. Also note how in daily life, when locking a door/turning a key counterclockwise, the elbow is most comfortable popping up, and, when turning a key clockwise/unlocking, the elbow is most comfortable popping down.

Don't want to side-track this but just wanted to say I thought the literal key exercise was brilliant to feel it out. If I further carry the move through into the throw it makes it very clear what my arm is doing/how it naturally wants to unfold into the release point.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

What's up, feller. I haven't been following the nose angle debate much, so finally watched the video rustlin' everybody's jammies around here.



"This tip that Josh gave me. First and foremost, Josh is the one that came up with this verbal cue for throwing nose down."

First question, which is the verbal cue? Is it "flip it"? Is it "turn the key"?

Second, had you heard this cue before in disc golf coach speak? Anecdotally, I've heard turn the key discussed for years, but the implied instruction is the opposite of what Mikey-man demonstrated - you turn the key to lock the door/counterclockwise*. So, I'm interested in the genesis of how Overthrow may have flipped this "turn the key" advice to generally mean the opposite.

*it's not really an active movement cue thing, but more a positional/neuromuscular activation feeling. An obvious analogy would be how this positional/neuromuscular activation feeling mimics that of the brace foot. Also note how in daily life, when locking a door/turning a key counterclockwise, the elbow is most comfortable popping up, and, when turning a key clockwise/unlocking, the elbow is most comfortable popping down.

*edit* I'm looking to discuss swing theory here mainly. I work professionally in data analysis and am wholly uninterested in the TechDisc datums used by Mikey-man as evidence of the efficacy of the cue.

Flip it and turn the key are different cues I use that attempt to get people to supinate into the hit. I've also used: turn your palm up, turn your nails up, go from thumbs down to thumbs up. They all work, it's just a matter of which one works for the individual and as a coach it is my job to find mental cues/images that get the student to do the correct motion regardless of what it is. Mikey's favorite just so happened to be the flip the disc cue.

I'm not sure where I heard "turn the key" first, but that one was obviously not originated by me.

Biologically supinators are not the strongest so it is interesting that they can be used in the swing for a large impact. I have attempted to find a way of throwing that uses pronation instead that allows for nose down, but my testing has yielded interesting results.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

@Kennets

1. How hard is it to boil down a video to a shorter video (10 minutes ish), when there's a huge possibility that things get lost in translation? Ie: your nose angle video and the way some people interpreted it in here.

We don't have video length goals and don't play the YouTube game really. For us video length is just based on how in depth we want to get into the topic (which usually is not that in depth). Most people, even when learning complicated sports movements, need VERY simple cues. The serve in tennis is extremely complicated. Before learning about the disc golf backhand I believed the serve to be the most complicated sports move out there. Even with how complicated it is I've never heard instruction come anywhere close to how in depth most disc golf instruction gets. My biggest concern is not that I won't give enough information, but that I will give too much and then give the viewer paralysis analysis. After all, the pros know far less than we do in here, but learned to throw better than most of us will ever dream of.

2. Is coaching, online lessons and generally "the overthrow brand" your day job? If yes, how hard is it to maintain relevant in terms of studying mechanics and getting "new drills"? (Or in other words, keeping busy, creating content and getting clients). There's only "so much" to present to the viewer.

Overthrow is my day job and I've been full time for the last 2 years. I study mechanics a lot. Not to stay relevant but usually out of frustration in not moving a particularly non-athletic student forward. Video concepts and drills are born out of that. The Twirlybird for example came about because I had a student that literally could not coil. Just could not turn back. He would only move his arm back (collapsing his pocket) and his shoulders would not move. So i finally just said: do this. Stick your arms out like a little airplane. Now turn like this. He did it.

When I have a problem with one student you're not gonna see a video of it. If I tell 15 students the same thing then you'll see a video. Basically our content is me getting tired of telling people the same thing and trying to put myself out of private lesson clientele.

I do not seek out students. I'm getting close to having too many actually and want more coaches out there to take on the load.

I also think there is infinite content because the game evolves and people are unique so there will always be new ways to solve old problems .

 

[Kennets]

Thank you for your time and answer! I appreciate it!

I knew "relevant" wasn't the right word I were looking for, but you did answer the stuff, so it's all good!

 

[OverthrowJosh]

I appreciate the effort y'all put into improving people's game, and I'm even subscribed despite not watching them (went Uli coaching instead).
So here's a question my wife would ask as she is in a scientific field. Your nose angle results seem to be the most controversial, so how have you backed up your results? Double-blind studies

When a cue or concept hits the channel it is after having first used it in lots of private lessons. Fortunately most of my students have TechDisc so I'm able to test cues very quickly.

Basically, if it is something I haven't seen proof of working for a bunch of people it doesn't make our YouTube channel.

I can take almost all of my students to nose down within one session, perhaps not consistently within the first session but they know that it is a matter of reps by the end of the session.

I would like to say that even the arm the disc video, which was perhaps even more controversial, came about after helping loads of students get from backswing through the pocket better (i.e. no longer collapsing).

I'm happy to share whatever proof people would like to see.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

Im curious on the specifics of why you feel you have been misrepresented on nose-angle takes, so if you want to elaborate to clear that up that might help! I assume a lot of that might be related to the new 'flip it up' video.

Oh, i was referencing the grifter and non results oriented claims on that thread.

I suppose I'd start with a simple question about that cue: Who is it intended for? Do you believe this is a movement pattern that is genuinely biomechanically sound, or are you providing a possible compensatory action that might work for people with otherwise flawed form?

The answer to that might just clear it up for me, because there is a place for helping people in that manner...but if you are going to defend flipping the disc up as an actual legitimate movement, I think that will open up some confusion lol

That cue is intended for people who struggle with nose down AND for people in that subset that can use the cue to remedy the problem. Cues are not biomechanics. If it tell a student "try thinking about doing the splits while you throw" and it causes him to throw nose down then the cue worked. A cue does not need to accurately represent sound biomechanics, it only needs to help the student do the correct thing.

As to the biomechanics of flip the disc, the goal is supination. You can have a perfect swing plane and your grip can be perfectly aligned, but if your arm is too pronated at the hit you will throw nose up. I don't think there is any way to argue against that. If you pronate as much as you possibly can and move through your motion it will be nose up. If you haven't tried it before, i highly recommend.

The cue is not compensatory in nature necessarily but a good cue often solves several problems at once. For example, if you tell someone to flip/roll the disc (supinate) then oftentimes they will naturally pronate a bit on the backswing which can cause their elbow to lift up away from their body, avoiding the elbow dropping below the plane of the hand.

I guess I would ask some follow up questions of you:
1. Is supination non-biomechanically sound?
2. Is supination compensatory in nature?

My defense if either of those answers are "yes" would be:
1. There are pros that definitely supinate and claim they do (GG and AB)
2. As a coach I'm not concerned with avoiding the elbow drop happening if they try the flip the disc cue. If it happens then I decide whether I discard the cue for them or if it is better to fix the new elbow position.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

1) from what I can recall, you guys were relatively speaking very early adopters in utilizing tech disc. This far into the project, what are any negatives you've found from using it so much? And is it actually translating into lower scores and better golf beyond just throwing further

The biggest downside to using it is if people get focused on manipulating the numbers regardless of process/form. There's a bit of an educational process that happens with my students that use them where we talk about using it for "good" or for "evil."

Regarding scores, it helps people throw better. That doesn't always come out in the way of scores. Sometimes you learn to throw faster but when throwing into a screen you don't have a tree waiting to ruin your day so the accuracy can be a little late to the party.

2) Disc golf coaching is still very much in its wild wild west stage. I don't coach disc golf, but I've coached track and field for 15 years. In Athletics I've noticed a few concepts stick around that are either flat out wrong or even potentially harmful despite the wealth of knowledge and prominent people actively disproving them. Have you noticed any similar items in disc golf given how unregulated coaching it is, and if so what would those items be?

I feel like @sidewinder22 is better suited to answer that as he has a bit more history in the sport than I do, but I'll give it a go.

I think back leg mechanics are pretty easily misunderstood and I was very wrong on the use of the back leg when I started coaching here.

The thing that makes me think disc golf coaching is in the wild Wild West stage is that there is little to no distinction between a coaches skill set and biomechanical knowledge.

 

[RowingBoats]

I guess I would ask some follow up questions of you:
1. Is supination non-biomechanically sound?
2. Is supination compensatory in nature?

Haha, no I would not agree to these as written for sure. I would say that some people's form is going to benefit from smooth and slight supination. Nobody should be violently supinating though, nor should they be maximally supinating. Most people's arms are capable of supinating to be fully palm up. I am quite sure you would not defend this as a goal in the swing, so why would a cue literally demonstrate to do this?

To your larger point though I don't really disagree. You coach a lot of people, you know more about how to get people up to a reasonably non-shit swing than I do, and I can appreciate the value in trying lots of different cues.

Thinking through why I have actual negative opinions on cues, I think it probably boils down to telling people to do things that are very capable of being injurious, and also things that are very clearly not actually compatible with the swing if performed as demonstrated. Flipping a disc over the top of your hand kind of triggers me on both fronts I suppose.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

Haha, no I would not agree to these as written for sure. I would say that some people's form is going to benefit from smooth and slight supination. Nobody should be violently supinating though, nor should they be maximally supinating. Most people's arms are capable of supinating to be fully palm up. I am quite sure you would not defend this as a goal in the swing, so why would a cue literally demonstrate to do this?

To your larger point though I don't really disagree. You coach a lot of people, you know more about how to get people up to a reasonably non-shit swing than I do, and I can appreciate the value in trying lots of different cues.

Thinking through why I have actual negative opinions on cues, I think it probably boils down to telling people to do things that are very capable of being injurious, and also things that are very clearly not actually compatible with the swing if performed as demonstrated. Flipping a disc over the top of your hand kind of triggers me on both fronts I suppose.

Right. I am not advocating for anyone "violently supinating" or "maximally supinating." The problem for most people is that they are pronating through the hit. If you take someone like that and tell them to supinate, even if you were to say "turn your palm all the way up" they are probably only going to get part of the way there.

Most people are not going to do exactly what you demonstrate so you often have to exaggerate even what you show to get them to move the needle anywhere close to where they need to be. There are some however that will do EXACTLY what you tell them. When you find that odd duck you very quickly take note and your language changes to align with biomechanical reality very quickly. lol

I don't expect to change your views on cues all in one go, but might commend you to watching coaching sessions of a sport you know in and out biomechanically. The language will blow your mind haha. You'll be like, how did this guy train champions?

 

[RowingBoats]

Right. I am not advocating for anyone "violently supinating" or "maximally supinating." The problem for most people is that they are pronating through the hit. If you take someone like that and tell them to supinate, even if you were to say "turn your palm all the way up" they are probably only going to get part of the way there.

Most people are not going to do exactly what you demonstrate so you often have to exaggerate even what you show to get them to move the needle anywhere close to where they need to be. There are some however that will do EXACTLY what you tell them. When you find that odd duck you very quickly take note and your language changes to align with biomechanical reality very quickly. lol

I don't expect to change your views on cues all in one go, but might commend you to watching coaching sessions of a sport you know in and out biomechanically. The language will blow your mind haha. You'll be like, how did this guy train champions?

I misworded, I don't mean I have a negative opinion on all cues lol. I just meant that some specific cues jar me pretty hard, and this is one of them.

I understand everything you are saying, and that in reality most people are not going to execute the literal demonstration...but I would argue that you are in fact advocating for violent maximal supination if the cue is...to literally flip the disc over the top of your hand. Maybe not advocating, but certainly that a reasonable human could not be faulted for interpreting it that way.

I find 'turning the key' to be a more reasonable cue terminology. I would not expect many people to interpret those words to mean that they need to turn that key quickly, nor that they might need to turn it until their palm is facing the sky.

Im really not arguing with ya though, I hear what you are saying.

 

[sidewinder22]

I feel like @sidewinder22 is better suited to answer that as he has a bit more history in the sport than I do, but I'll give it a go.

I think back leg mechanics are pretty easily misunderstood and I was very wrong on the use of the back leg when I started coaching here.

The thing that makes me think disc golf coaching is in the wild Wild West stage is that there is little to no distinction between a coaches skill set and biomechanical knowledge.

 

[Brychanus]

 

[CoachChris]

. I have attempted to find a way of throwing that uses pronation instead that allows for nose down, but my testing has yielded interesting results.

To throw nose down with pronation, switch to an "overhand wrist flip" (chicken wing). On a normal backhand, pronation leads to some beautiful air bounces.