biscoe
* Ace Member *
you've seen erik's "ladies". they can't help that they weigh 800# and moo.
Renaissance -- out of the top 50? (also, list of 4-star or higher courses)
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so a guy who has not played very many courses looks at a list like that, sees a course he likes is ranked #24 and assumes the list is worthless because the course he likes is ranked so 'low', despite the fact that he hasn't even played the 23 courses ranked higher and his comment has merit? how?
I agree that subjective reviews by players with little experience diminishes the worth of the list, but my point was that you can still get a general idea of what are some of the better courses, especially as the site continues to grow and more reviews are written - do you deny that those are at least 100 or so of the better courses? are some good courses missing? of course - is the order completely accurate? of course not - but knowing that these are some of the better courses around, people are more likely to want to travel and go play these courses, so that they can experience them for themselves and then will write more reviews
I agree with not reading into a list like this too much, but the idea is that when you see a list like this and you see a quality course that is missing, then advertise the site to more people in that area, so that more people will write reviews on these courses - if the course is worthy, then as the site grows, it will get recognized - the site is user driven, the more users, the more reviews, the more reviews, the better
I agree that subjective reviews by players with little experience diminishes the worth of the list, but my point was that you can still get a general idea of what are some of the better courses, especially as the site continues to grow and more reviews are written - do you deny that those are at least 100 or so of the better courses? are some good courses missing? of course - is the order completely accurate? of course not - but knowing that these are some of the better courses around, people are more likely to want to travel and go play these courses, so that they can experience them for themselves and then will write more reviews
I agree with not reading into a list like this too much, but the idea is that when you see a list like this and you see a quality course that is missing, then advertise the site to more people in that area, so that more people will write reviews on these courses - if the course is worthy, then as the site grows, it will get recognized - the site is user driven, the more users, the more reviews, the more reviews, the better
Because the course in question happens to have national recognition amongst long time players as one of the most challenging in the country. Many of the 23 (err 28 now) above it got that high through local word of mouth reviewing it favorably on here at least five times. Which do you think equates to more credibility?
Some GREAT Courses are missing. Here's whats going to crash the list very soon, when they get that magical fifth review, and about where they're going to crash it.
Winthrop Gold Course (Top 3)
Blueberry Hill (about 5)
Kensington Toboggan (about 15)
Madisonville City Park DGC (about 15)
Horseshoe Canyon Ranch (about 30)
Ewing Park (about 35)
Fox Chase (about 45)
Pike Lake State Park (about 45)
Zephyr Cove Park (about 65)
Rogers Lakewood Park (about 65)
Eagle Ridge/Civic Center (about 70)
Lions Wilderness DGC (about 85)
Forked Run State Park (about 90)
Enman Field - Beast (about 90)
Kiwanis DGC (about 95)
Walnut Creek Park (about 95)
Trophy Lakes (about 95)
Campgaw Reservation (about 95)
Rolling Hills County Park (about 100)
Tuscawilla Park (about 100)
Thing is, Its going to take awhile for that to fill out. In the meantime, I could just as easily give my so-so local course a 4.5 to 5 star rating (instead of the 2.5 I really gave it), tell four of my buddies to sign up on DGCR and do the same, and wallah. I suddenly have a top rated course. I suspect that's why a lot of courses are on this list, not because they're the cream of the crop.
this explains my sentiments to a T...
I see these things as great, you see them as bad that's why I love this site, I get to see the diffrences in oppinion. Parking has no effect on how the course plays, other than that it keeps more people from showing up and crowding up the course. A 1/2 mile walk is nothing, if you won't walk a 1/2 mile to play disc golf than good more golf for me. Plus a 1/2 mile walk just gets the blood flowing before a round therefore I'm more ready to play. I have quite a few courses around here that are deep out in the mountains, one in particular has a 2+ hour walk in, and it just helps keep people away. Aaaahhhh theres nothing beter than spending a weekend out playing disc soo far out in the woods that you can run around butt naked if you want. I'm happy alot of those courses arn't listed, it keeps down the amount of players.
Keep Hucking
-Chris UPDGA # 0001
Actually Chris - I don't see them as bad. I just don't include those qualities when calling something the best of the best. How does the rating system go? 4=excellent, 4.5=phenomenal, 5=best of the best. There was a guy who rated a course in Alaska a 5 that you need a kayak to get to - and you have to be worried about bears. It may be the finest DG property on the planet - but if you can't get to it - it aint a 5. capishe?
For something to be the best of the best it not only has to have great play and superb upkeep but also have amenities IMO. Can you imagine someone calling a football stadium great if there weren't any toilets or a golf course the BotB if it didn't sell golf balls and tees? I have seen courses that I would normally call 5 stars but wouldn't give them that because they weren't finished yet. Everything has to be finished and in good repair (like stairs, paths, rough, fairways, signs) for a course to be even considered BotB IMO.
Parking can matter but less so than other things and I don't think it should preclude something from BotB unless it is really bad.
I could see seperating courses in skill levels. There are courses I would consider 5 star for beginners that would in no way qualify any where near that for a Pro. The play quality varies a lot based on skill.
Parking can matter but less so than other things and I don't think it should preclude something from BotB unless it is really bad.
I could see seperating courses in skill levels. There are courses I would consider 5 star for beginners that would in no way qualify any where near that for a Pro. The play quality varies a lot based on skill.
This is all based on people's subjective opinions anyway. I see the list as more of a curiosity thing. It gives you some idea of some courses that might be some of the better ones around the country. If you have not played them all you really can't say for sure and even if you had played them all it would still just be your opinion and evryone would not agree with it. If all of us on the site got together and played the so called top 20 and ranked them ourselves I know we would not agree on the order. I see high rankings given to course I don't really like and lower rankings given to some I really like. We all have our own likes and dislikes and opinions.
With everything subjective, we'll never get a definitive top list, however, I think we'll get to a point where it can generally be agreed that anything ranked above ~4.00 is worth traveling a little ways out of the way to play. DGCR is of greatest value to people who are travelling; locals already have plenty of local resources to determine what courses are the best use of their time.
I feel that -- even in its current state -- DGCR helps to provide info for roadtrip destinations, for people on business travel, for people visiting friends/relatives out of state/etc... to make informed, careful decisions about what courses are the best use of their time in a given area. In the short -- 6 months or so -- that I've been actively using this site, it's provided a wealth of information that's been useful for roadtrips, business, and personal travel.
The course ratings as they stand help me to know when I should drive 30 mins off the interstate to play a course, and when it is a better use of my time to burn rubber down the road to make it to a different course before dark instead.
Subjectivity and experience will make it impossible to ever agree on the top 10 or top 100 or top whatever number of courses. However, I think -- looking down the road -- that someday, when every course in the country has 10+ reviews, the couple hundred that make the 4.00+ cut will be pretty clearly the cream of the crop.
So no, the system isn't -- and never can be perfect -- but it can fulfll it's need wthout being perfect.
I feel that -- even in its current state -- DGCR helps to provide info for roadtrip destinations, for people on business travel, for people visiting friends/relatives out of state/etc... to make informed, careful decisions about what courses are the best use of their time in a given area. In the short -- 6 months or so -- that I've been actively using this site, it's provided a wealth of information that's been useful for roadtrips, business, and personal travel.
The course ratings as they stand help me to know when I should drive 30 mins off the interstate to play a course, and when it is a better use of my time to burn rubber down the road to make it to a different course before dark instead.
Subjectivity and experience will make it impossible to ever agree on the top 10 or top 100 or top whatever number of courses. However, I think -- looking down the road -- that someday, when every course in the country has 10+ reviews, the couple hundred that make the 4.00+ cut will be pretty clearly the cream of the crop.
So no, the system isn't -- and never can be perfect -- but it can fulfll it's need wthout being perfect.
I totally agree. To be best of the best you must have all the amenities. The actual course is the most important thing but those other amenities count also.
I agree with magictenor and tim - they've explained it well
scarpfish, we seem to be in agreement about merits of the list, but instead of complaining about how crappy it is and how long it will take to fill out, I believe in promoting the site to as many new people as possible, especially in locations where these great courses reside, so that as the site continues to grow, these great courses will get the reviews/ratings and respect they deserve - things will balance out in time and the cream will rise to the top
as far as the course in question is concerned, the person with the most courses played has stated he would not consider that course as being in his top 50 - I don't have an opinion because I have not played that course yet, but whether you agree with him or not, maybe he is right and the 'national recognition' of the course has led to it being over rated?
scarpfish, we seem to be in agreement about merits of the list, but instead of complaining about how crappy it is and how long it will take to fill out, I believe in promoting the site to as many new people as possible, especially in locations where these great courses reside, so that as the site continues to grow, these great courses will get the reviews/ratings and respect they deserve - things will balance out in time and the cream will rise to the top
as far as the course in question is concerned, the person with the most courses played has stated he would not consider that course as being in his top 50 - I don't have an opinion because I have not played that course yet, but whether you agree with him or not, maybe he is right and the 'national recognition' of the course has led to it being over rated?
McMarkD
Par Member
I have played Palmetto in Florida and Beaver Ranch in Colorado. Palmetto had benches at every Tee, water jugs by about every 3rd Tee, bathrooms, bag holders on the tees. Some interesting build ups around the pins, concrete pads plus lines for junior players about 75 feet from the pins. The variety of shots seemed limited, just threading the woods and fades and turns on your drive. Meanwhile Beaver Ranch has holes that go downhill causing discs that normally go straight, to become very understable and curve right. Uphill 170' holes that take the 270' flat throwers 3 shots to get to the pin. Risk-reward shots where you miss the put and it rolls two strokes down the hill and you didn't loose a disc in the water. Having to wait for an elk to cross the 16th hole while you are anxious to see what your Valkyrie is going to do on the 17th. Huffing and puffing on the 3rd pin so hard you don't think you can sink a 15 foot put. Like ponto said... "hey it's a mountain course". But it sure has a variety of shots. Who cares that I peed behind the teepee on 5 or that the pads are not paved. I just had a beautiful 20 holes, and had discs do things they never have done before! The golf experience is everything, the amenities egh if I want them I will go to a restaurant! IMO Beaver Ranch belongs in the Best of the Best... Palmetto was fun, and a new experiance for a Colorado DGer but the amenities didn't make it a best of the best.
Another thing to consider with that is there are a lot of new courses popping up every month, some of which are really nice. I am sure DeLa is a great course but there is a lot more competition these days than there was even a couple of years ago as far as AAA courses go. I've noticed the site also brings out some of the really good, lesser known courses out of the wood work too that don't have national reputations (yet).
I think what people seem to be arguing is that there are courses out there that have that golf experience you talked about, but they ALSO have the amenities to go along with that... they would argue that the course you just mentioned is excellent or phenomenal, but not quite best of the best - this should be very elite company, not every course can be best of the best and there has to things that seperate them from just another phenomenal course
based on what you said, the course you mentioned and one of these elite courses would both be considered best of the best, yet one of them would clearly be better than the other?
Yeah -- lots of new courses popping up every year. I've played DeLaveaga, and I wasn't nearly as impressed as the hype I had heard for years. "Top of the World" was a fun shot, but it wasn't nearly as cool as I had it built up in my mind. Several holes felt similar and the 27 didn't have the variety and the grandeur of the best courses I have played.
It also wasn't -- in my opinion -- a Gold level course. I would say it is optimized for White level players, maybe Blue, being generous. My favorite courses -- the best of the best -- are likely going to be the Blue/Gold courses that really show the potential of what a disc golf course can be, and where the future of the game is.
In my mind, DeLa probably deserves a 4.0 - Excellent - but anything above that is just overrating it. The reputation and locals are holding it afloat, but as those people who gave it 5-stars play other places and update their reviews, it will fall back to earth where it deserves to be.
Since DeLa was built back in 1983 (yes, it's more than 25 years old), discs and courses have changed immensely. It was a 5-star course 15 years ago. Maybe even 10-years ago. Now it's been surpassed and I'm elated to have had the chance to play some of the courses that have leaped past DeLaveaga and pushed the envelope of what is possible for disc golf.
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I would suggest that this site at this point in time has a regional bias. I looked at the list on the first post and counted up the number of courss in the top 50 by quadrant of the country (well, sextrant really....but I'm not sure if that is a word):
NorthWest: 3
NorthCentral: 18
NorthEast: 13
SouthEast: 7
SouthCentral: 6
SouthWest: 3
North: 34
South: 16
I'm not sure of all the reasons why there is this clear regional bias. One reason might be that in the winter, northerners are jonesing for DG since they can not play. So they get on this site and write about and rate the courses they have played and wish they were playing that day. The Southerners are out there playing.......man I'm jealous!
NorthWest: 3
NorthCentral: 18
NorthEast: 13
SouthEast: 7
SouthCentral: 6
SouthWest: 3
North: 34
South: 16
I'm not sure of all the reasons why there is this clear regional bias. One reason might be that in the winter, northerners are jonesing for DG since they can not play. So they get on this site and write about and rate the courses they have played and wish they were playing that day. The Southerners are out there playing.......man I'm jealous!
Could it be that there are just more total courses in the North than the South?
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Having played a lot in the South and in the Northeast, part of the difference is that the land for disc golf is simply BETTER in some parts of the country. The south has a lot less elevation, and doesn't have as much of the big exposed rocks and huge trees that you do in a lot of the north.
I'm not saying there aren't amazing courses in the South, but the number of great courses is legitimately higher in the north -- not because of a regional bias, but because of the land that is available.
In the south, land nobody wants is either a field or a swamp. In the North, you've got amazing land that nobody wants because the terrain is too treacherous to build on or farm, and so disc golf gets a piece of it. That's the kind of land that makes the best courses.
There are some amazing courses in the south, but only a few of the top courses in the south can match courses farther up... and the best southern courses are in southern states like North Carolina, that has similar terrain to much of the North.
None of these generalizations are without exceptions -- lots of exceptions. But they are good, broad generalizations of why the North is always likely to have more top-tier courses than the south.
I'm not saying there aren't amazing courses in the South, but the number of great courses is legitimately higher in the north -- not because of a regional bias, but because of the land that is available.
In the south, land nobody wants is either a field or a swamp. In the North, you've got amazing land that nobody wants because the terrain is too treacherous to build on or farm, and so disc golf gets a piece of it. That's the kind of land that makes the best courses.
There are some amazing courses in the south, but only a few of the top courses in the south can match courses farther up... and the best southern courses are in southern states like North Carolina, that has similar terrain to much of the North.
None of these generalizations are without exceptions -- lots of exceptions. But they are good, broad generalizations of why the North is always likely to have more top-tier courses than the south.
Another reason why certain areas have more/less courses on the list has to do with the amount of locals that use this site. Here in the Charlotte area, for example, there are an extraordinary number of top rated players, but they stay on the local DG website (charlottedgc.com). As we've seen, locals tend to rate their courses higher than out-of-towners/1-time players. If all the local Charlotte players became active on this site, courses like Renny, Winthrop and Hornet's Nest would be getting tons of 5 & 4.5s, which would then boost them up the rankings, and other courses (Kilborne, Reedy Creek, Ranklin Lake) would be appearing on the list.
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