The Myth of Disc Pivot

[JR]

Those are two different forms. Shoulder spinning is natural for me because i've been doing that so long and it is great for keeping the disc on a line so accuracy wise it has few moving elements and is ok for placement shots. Because i can't fully hit yet i haven't had much distance difference at all with a later hip twist but i can do both forms. I just wanna heal so i can try these out while adding gripping power now that i've gotten more wrist down angle. Fortunately there are two fields close enough to me with artificial lawn surfaces because the fall rains have started and the natural ground doesn't have enough traction any more. I wanna throw so bad.

 

[Blake_T1]

I can be a bit dense when it comes to understanding simple key points. Up until reading this line, I was under the impression that the hips (which drive the shoulders) start moving to open once you get your elbow up. If I understand this correctly, it should be the other way around.. So I get the elbow out, start the chop, then engage the hips to get that late acceleration? It makes sense now; if I start my rotating the hips before the arm extends I'm at the end of the power generated from the hips and actually slowing down so it's all arm at that point. It somewhat reminds me of engaging on a push putt. When I'm on and feeling it, there is a distinct feeling where I am almost passive until the disc starts to move on it's own at which time I actively spit it out of my hand onto a conveyor belt straight to the basket. If my timing is off and I try to engage the disc prior to it's own weight shift it comes up short or I arm it and it goes right.

that is sort of correct.

the hip rotation happens in two stages. one of them gets your body opening, weight transferring, and puts you into position (aka leads you to the power pocket).

the second rotation is a bit harder to describe, but the best parallel i can think of is a baseball player "swinging from the heels." this occurs AFTER the bat contacts the ball and they break their wrists over and then pivot the hips with leverage to push the ball with the bat.

basically, the second hip rotation doesn't really apply power until you are passing through the critical point.

 

[JR]

I had a short session yesterday with the first throwing after sick leave and starting with the disc 30 degrees above horizon in the reach back and wrestling the hand down from the wrist it hurt above the elbow. Inner side so golf elbow trouble and i've never been diagnosed with that.

Intentionally i tried to throw close to how i have thrown before. Meaning not slowing the arm down so that i could gauge how well i could hold on to the disc and how well the disc could pivot. Unfortunately i was having slips and half hit throws and possibly one three quarters hit with a Coyote and a Saint. The Saint flew as far as warp speeders last year. Overall i think my grip strength ain't enough despite trying to add to it early on and even harder late in the throw with each finger with the modified power grip. Putters, mids and the Saint.

The good was that i could throw higher than ever before while having the disc flat front to back. The trouble was that it didn't translate to more distance because getting high the speed bled off and even putters faded out and short. Dropping the apex by about 4-5' allowed the Saint and the Coyote to throw noticeably farther than normally.

I had a hell of a time with plane breaking. I was missing left and right from just trying to push the wrist down. I also tried to move the wrist to hyper spin position actively and was able to do that on occasion. I noticed i had inconsistencies so i made life simpler by not trying to hyper spin after i found out that i sucked rocks in trying to hold on to the disc. Arrgh! I had a few worm burners so i have work to do in getting the apex eight perfect. Thrown low i was able to get the front of the disc way lower than the rear and i had some 20' flights. Blechh.

What i got from this session is the need to power down just like in practice because i have butter for fingers apparently. So i need to give some filthy torture to my fingers, forearm tendons and muscles over the winter. Even more than thus far that is because i've done that already. I think i have maximized the grip strength practically both pre right pec position and after. I could add a little to the power but it would slow down the arm motion. I can't say if my snap improved in the two shots i felt were good. I used discs that are penalizing on purpose. That Saint is GL 167 and at my power it needs initial hyzer and gliding so well it'll miss far to the sides with missed hyzer angle.

What i need to do is power the beep down to see if i can perfect form and see how far i can throw snap dominated only and this time with staple in the bag molds. Once i'm able to pull that off i need to increase power and elbow chop speed gradually to see where my form starts to deteriorate.

 

[soupdeluxe]

I have continued to work on the water drill and trying to throw on MBs rail. I have been slowing down the reach back to pocket part of my throw to what feels almost rediculus. I am thinking the whole time "keep the water still" even though I have a disc in hand. The results have been really cool. First off I can really feel when I get into the pocket and the unwinding of the hand around the edge of the disc providing spin. I am also able to hang on much later into the throw. On my old throw my hand would come off way early and sort of pop up into the air. Up instead of out. I don't mean to brag but I have gotten a roc out to 300 now a few times and a driver out to 340. Now I know this isn't a long throw by a lot of people on this board but it is a break through for a guy that could not break 300 a few months ago. The neat part about this is all this with no run up, no flailing around, no grunt of exertion, just a double shuffle step and super slow "in" to the pocket and quick out. I still have my bad days but overall everything is really looking up. I don't feel qualified to be giving advice but if you feel like it try really slowing down the "in" motion and see what it does for you. Thank You
SD

 

[Blake_T1]

soup:

it sounds like you are starting to feel and control the disc's inertia. the "unwinding of the hand around the edge of the disc providing spin" says to me you are feeling it... now it's just a matter of making it stronger/faster if you want to throw farther.

 

[wolfobert]

Hi, I'm a long-time lurker who finally registered. I'd like to rebuild my throw over the winter. I've read most of the content on this site and feel like I sort of understand what's going on conceptually, but struggle to turn it into actual distance gain. I'm still stuck in the strong-arming distance, 300ish feet line drives on command with the occasional 350 on turnover lines.

In my last 3 field practice sessions, I tried to concentrate on slowing down and having a more pronounced hit (I try to feel the weight of the disc and fling it around by opening my wrist). The feeling is varies in strength depending on the point of release relative to my body, but I find it hard to control and tend to lose it if reach back or speed up too much. The thing is, even if everything works and the hit feels relatively strong, I only throw about 20 feet longer than on a complete slip with full reach back. Is this a sign that I'm doing something fundamentally wrong or should I just be more patient and try to make the hit even stronger by improving weight shift/hip rotation/heel pivot and all the other things people write about here?

Another thing I noticed is that I have a tendency to throw to the right of the pull line now (sometimes I get total grip locks, which I never had before). Does that mean I'm forcing the fling too much? It should be initiated passively, right?

 

[Blake_T1]

If it's only a 20' gain then it probably isn't a strong hit, but seeing that it is longer, you are probably on the right track. In these cases i would recomend trying it with a 2-finger backhand grip to see if your timing and momentum control can improve even more.

In most cases you have to throw a little bit closed stance or you will pull slightly right of center.

In your case i have a feeling it's a timing issue. If your shoulder rotation is early and you get too faced up before the hit you will grip lock (assuming you hold onto it through the critical point).

Think of wrist extension like the break of the wrists when swinging a baseball bat. Your focus isn't really on breaking your wrists, it's getting the bat through. A strong and well-timed break of the wrists will give you more bat speed and hitting power, but if you try to exaggerate the wrist break without proper timing it will be weaker. Wrist extension is a bi-product of good positions, timing, and angles. Forcing wrist extension outside of those things will not yield a significant gain.

 

[Blake_T1]

I will add, the purpose of most of the hammer drills, etc. are to assist in finding said timing, positions, and angles.

 

[JR]

Welcome wolf. Also try moving the thumb toward the center of the disc in half inch increments and tilting the thumb outermost section down at a 70 degree angle relative to the flight plate. If you pinch harder or earlier you'll get the max grip power you can generate now. The longest throws need a full reach back without a slip=you need to grip hard at least in the end of the throw and not everyone has enough power. One thing that might also help is to start with the most grip power between the base of the thumb and the pinky and ring finger. With a two finger grip you can push up toward the base of the thumb with the tip of the pinky and ring finger. Just make sure that the nails are clipped short to avoid horrible accidents :-D

 

[wolfobert]

Thanks for the answers! So I guess I just have to keep playing with my body positions and hope for an epiphany I'll also try a two-finger grip and a stronger pinch and see if that helps. I'll report back in a month or so.

 

[inthedrift]

Just make sure that the nails are clipped short to avoid horrible accidents

I've made this mistake before. Thanks for the lolz JR

 

[BrotherDave]

I would absolutely love to see an overhead camera view of Beto throwing. It's really hard for me to conceptualize this rail thing without seeing it in real time and I tried watching the "driving with Dan Beto" vid but it just looks like any other throw.

That said, after reading this thread I went out into the field and tried to emulate Beto's angled pull and I really like it. Whereas my drives would usually range from 270 to 290' (uphill, my field is sloped), everything was landing close to around 290'. I didn't really notice any distance gains, but I felt the weight of the disc/hammer a lot more consistently as opposed to a straight pull. And I didn't really notice any loss in accuracy.

But man, I've been topped out at around 325-350' for so long, I just don't know what I'm doing wrong. I can't quite get these hit mechanics right for some reason. Keep in mind though, that I've got short fingers so anything wider than a PD starts to get a little unwieldy. But I definitely feel like I have some untapped potential to at least get 400' fairly regularly but I'm at a loss.

 

[JR]

A video critique? For the record Chris Voigt from Germany was th first to push the distance world record to 200 meters and he uses the same pull only starting to do it earlier so the correct term would be the Voigt pull if there are no earlier examples. Voigt has thrown past 200 m in 9 consecutive years!

 

[JoshEpoo]

The pull line image isn't so much about coming in at an angle as it is getting into the power pocket with a shoulder pause. The abrupt turn is telling of how far forward Dan gets the disc before chopping his elbow, how slow the disc is going when it gets there, and then how explosive the acceleration is during his elbow/wrist release. It's all about the increasing arc radius or w/e Blake was talking about in that other thread but there is some funky stuff that goes on in the muscles of his arms and hands that makes him a distance freak too.

If you've been stuck at 350' for a long time BroD, you probably rotate your shoulders too fast too early, don't get your elbow forward enough, grip too hard and too early, and don't have your weight centered during your throw. Being off balance can really kill the pace of your shot, as you're forced into bad timing because you're essentially falling over. Also, a video critique is the obvious way to get useful feedback that isn't speculation.

 

[BrotherDave]

I'm leaning towards my shoulders being the (biggest) problem. I have good control of balance and I think my elbow is okay. I guess I'm gonna work on trying to throw slowly and figure out this dual shoulder thing, I just wish I could figure out what it's supposed to feel like.

 

[BrotherDave]

Actually, I think my problem is my weak ass grip. I tried keeping my hand in a fist during my follow through and drives were acting like they were slowing down quite a bit less.

 

[masterbeato]

The pull line image isn't so much about coming in at an angle as it is getting into the power pocket with a shoulder pause. The abrupt turn is telling of how far forward Dan gets the disc before chopping his elbow, how slow the disc is going when it gets there, and then how explosive the acceleration is during his elbow/wrist release. It's all about the increasing arc radius or w/e Blake was talking about in that other thread but there is some funky stuff that goes on in the muscles of his arms and hands that makes him a distance freak too.

If you've been stuck at 350' for a long time BroD, you probably rotate your shoulders too fast too early, don't get your elbow forward enough, grip too hard and too early, and don't have your weight centered during your throw. Being off balance can really kill the pace of your shot, as you're forced into bad timing because you're essentially falling over. Also, a video critique is the obvious way to get useful feedback that isn't speculation.

I am learning a lot about my throw in this thread, funny I have not seen Blake post this thread to begin with. Of course it has been about a year since I have been fully active on this site due to life's busy chores.

Cat, my muscles are freaky because I do a lot of wrist pushups nah, I do a lot of workouts that strengthen fast twitch fibers.

My intake on all of this, when it first started to make sense to me I accompanied Blake quite a lot last year (2012 now, geez!) with a few gentlemen on this newly found "rail" theory. Pulling from outside-in is something I consciously made an effort to do so because I accidentally did something weird once on the course and had an immediate "2nd" breakthrough, but it wasn't just the outside-in pull as a lot of players do this, even though that was what made me realize that I am doing something else far superior of what I was previously doing. I did not realize what it was until I spent another godawful aching 13 hours in the field.

The explanation fits perfectly of how I felt while I was throwing with this new found technique, and I found it by going back to the grass roots of where it all started, and I basically tweeked a bigger circular motion I got from the pec drill while gaining faster acceleration due to the new redirection while I was experimenting with the "outside-in" pull. My throw is very "pec drill" savvy. Easy to control and very consistent, also easy to find flaws if I am having a bad day and that is all I shaped my throw around in the last 3 - 4 years or so, not power. Power just came from experimenting from my mistakes.

 

[masterbeato]

I would absolutely love to see an overhead camera view of Beto throwing. It's really hard for me to conceptualize this rail thing without seeing it in real time and I tried watching the "driving with Dan Beto" vid but it just looks like any other throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj6kpdnYJzc

Here you go BrotherDave, this is a vanity video "MyThrow" shot last year and it has some angles and an overhead shot (1:58) including one in slow motion at 2:04.

Sorry it took so long!

 

[Stringbean]

Happy new year MB! Hope to hear more from you in 2013.

"I do a lot of workouts that strengthen fast twitch fibers." - Can you expand on this? Obviously good form is more important than muscular development but I have been experimenting lately with plyometric excercises that complement disc golf motions and am curious what kind of excercises you do to strengthen fast twitch muscles.

 

[masterbeato]

Happy new year MB! Hope to hear more from you in 2013.

"I do a lot of workouts that strengthen fast twitch fibers." - Can you expand on this? Obviously good form is more important than muscular development but I have been experimenting lately with plyometric excercises that complement disc golf motions and am curious what kind of excercises you do to strengthen fast twitch muscles.

Agreed, I just do these exercises to avoid long term injury and keep my body in shape and more consistent with my throw. There is really no good reason to "not" workout in my opinion. I just basically use a hand exerciser and clamp down short quick bursts as opposed to slowly closing your hand with the device. It is like doing any other exercise but you do it quickly in short bursts. I do it for my legs, abs, shoulders, arms and hands. It is very tiring but eventually you start seeing the benefits.