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- Nov 2, 2008
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If by more predictability you mean meathook or into a headwind.
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Unless thrown at the proper speed, distance discs underperform...
- Thread starter djjeremiahj
- Start date
djjeremiahj
Double Eagle Member
...
"Intended speed" as you call it, is the minimum speed at which any vehicle must travel to reach its optimal performance.
The designers create a disc, then field test it... from those tests, they say unless this disc is thrown at <X> speed (aka speed rating) it wont fly utilizing its fullest potential and optimize performance.
Most people equate a "speed rating" with a distance, when in fact it's a suggestion of how fast you need to throw to achieve maximum results. the nature of design and aerodynamics prove higher speed discs fly farther given the same throw, but that's irrelevant to actual performance capacity and usage. noobs havent understood this concept and only rely on face value - "Higher rated discs go farther for me"; this is substituting superior tools for technique.
"Intended speed" as you call it, is the minimum speed at which any vehicle must travel to reach its optimal performance.
The designers create a disc, then field test it... from those tests, they say unless this disc is thrown at <X> speed (aka speed rating) it wont fly utilizing its fullest potential and optimize performance.
Most people equate a "speed rating" with a distance, when in fact it's a suggestion of how fast you need to throw to achieve maximum results. the nature of design and aerodynamics prove higher speed discs fly farther given the same throw, but that's irrelevant to actual performance capacity and usage. noobs havent understood this concept and only rely on face value - "Higher rated discs go farther for me"; this is substituting superior tools for technique.
You nailed it. :clap:
You're advocating throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I say keep the baby (Destroyer/Boss) and throw out the bathwater (bad technique).
garublador
* Ace Member *
"Cruising speed" is probably a better term, but that doesn't really change anything that's been said.
It depends on whether you value getting the predictibility of that one line over the control of being able to choose your line. With good disc selection you won't end up sacrificing any preditibility but you'll still have all of the control. For example, anyone who can't get any disc up to its crusing speed also can't get a Teebird past its cruising speed. They also can't throw a Cyclone, Gazelle or Eagle fast enough to loose predictibility.
You're right that you'll probably get more hyzer distance out of a disc that's faster than you can control (but you need a minimum set of skills to make this useful), but that doesn't do a whole lot of good when you're trying to learn how to improve form and control your discs. The problem is most of the time people are trying to use fast discs to improve form rather than to gain a few feet of hyzer D.
That's not a good analogy because many times the baby (fast discs) is counterproductive to throwing out the bathwater (bad technique). With limiting yourself to slower discs you'll gain the skills required to get that little extra out of the really fast discs.
Ironically, most people find that after working with the slower discs to where they get really solid mechanics, they find that the use of the really fast discs is situational at best. So you do all this work to be able to control these discs just to find that the discs aren't nearly as useful as you originally thought.
I hear you... the speed rating marketing ploy and the overabundance of overlapping discs is just a ploy to make money. They tell you something is wonderful, like the Groove or FLX Challenger, and you try to work it in because you think you don't have the technique to handle the Boss, and one day it hits you...
I've been throwing a hunk of junk and wasting time on something that's less aerodynamically sound then the Russian Space program.
You must be able to achieve flight velocity to get any kind of performance out of a fast driver... but that doesn't mean you need to waste your time on a Banshee before buying a Flick. Some drivers have a flight range that starts at 200' others 300'+ and then accelerate to their maximum 400, 500 whatever feet.
And I'm really tired of this Teebird nonsense, that was one of the more frustrating discs to learn at an amateur level, If they were making them I wish I'd bought a light Surge... similar characteristics why not get more glide while learning better technique?
I've been throwing a hunk of junk and wasting time on something that's less aerodynamically sound then the Russian Space program.
You must be able to achieve flight velocity to get any kind of performance out of a fast driver... but that doesn't mean you need to waste your time on a Banshee before buying a Flick. Some drivers have a flight range that starts at 200' others 300'+ and then accelerate to their maximum 400, 500 whatever feet.
And I'm really tired of this Teebird nonsense, that was one of the more frustrating discs to learn at an amateur level, If they were making them I wish I'd bought a light Surge... similar characteristics why not get more glide while learning better technique?
FiveGramz
Par Member
I really wish I would have had known this stuff early on. It's only been recently that I realized I can consistently send my TL out farther than my Star Wraith and Star Boss. I honestly can never be thankful enough for threads like these and the knowledge you are all willing to share.
toothyfish
* Ace Member *
I have gone through it, too. Easy to think you need a fast disc to go far, then you work out form issues and soon your putter is going "far" I used speed 9-10 drivers for 250 ft drives when I started, I distance that I now cover with a Roc, with ease. Would never have realized the problem with out some "education."
I'm sure most of us will hit a cap on distance and will have to resort to faster discs to break through it. Not sure I'll ever get a Roc to go 350 and my Teebirds to 400, but I know it is very possible and I will continue to use mids and slow drivers in practice to maintain form. The point here is that at least be aware of it and work to reach your individual potential, whatever that may be.
I'm sure most of us will hit a cap on distance and will have to resort to faster discs to break through it. Not sure I'll ever get a Roc to go 350 and my Teebirds to 400, but I know it is very possible and I will continue to use mids and slow drivers in practice to maintain form. The point here is that at least be aware of it and work to reach your individual potential, whatever that may be.
VictorB
* Ace Member *
I'm going to have to call you out on this one.
Mechanical Power (in watts) is defined by Energy/Time (P = E/t)
So therefore 1 W = 1 J/s, where J = Joule (a unit of force).
What you have looks most similar to the formula for Kinetic Energy (m/2*v^2)
Speed (linear velocity) is defined at the change in distance over the change in time (dd/dt).
When you're throwing a disc, not only does linear velocity come into play, but also rotational velocity, moment of inertia (which would differ by disc), and other things such as drag. It really is pretty complicated physics analyzing the flight of a golf disc.
If I remember correctly there is a nice thread over on DGR about disc physics.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
quoted for truth- it's not all about speed! i've said this so many times that i finally gave up.
Rotational velocity is a by-product of linear velocity and can and should be maximized by using various techniques such as power grip and accellerating through the "hit".
chiggins
Eagle Member
I think this is more evident in forehand throws, where you can put all the speed in the world on it but it won't fly right if you can't get enough snap on it to give it the spin it needs at that speed to keep stable.
One of the Disc Golf Monthly TV episodes (pretty sure that's where I saw it?) has Barry Schultz doing the Tips from a Pro feature, where he demonstrates a slower, smoother stroke with lots of snap going straighter and farther than the faster, jerkier throw.
LocalsRoute
Par Member
If your just now learning this then you dont play enough or with enough good people.My suggestion get off your ass and play more. Start from the ground up all over again, practice more often with more understable plastic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Im a Discraft guy nowadays but I learned the correct way of throwing by using a beat roadrunner.If you want to learn control start with something flippy.If you cant throw it without flipping it your still not understanding what is neccesarry to obtain distance and need to keep practicing once you can bomb understable then work your way up to the next stabillity in discs.If you cant flip it up flat then you not ready for a driver and should use a midrange like a Stratus or Stingray.IMHO you you start with a midrange anyways but many noobs find it easier to grip the thin drivers. You can read it a 1000 times but until you do it, you wont understand how it will help you.
Leopards,Roadrunners,Avenger SS- good starter drivers
Stingray or Stratus- good starter midrange.
Leopards,Roadrunners,Avenger SS- good starter drivers
Stingray or Stratus- good starter midrange.
Joule is a unit of energy. 1 J = 1 Newton (unit of force) X 1 meter (distance)
1 N = 1 kg X 1 m / s ^2 or force equals mass times acceleration.
I think the two velocities are only slightly related, mostly independent. Think about tossing a disc straight up, to catch it yourself. It has no forward velocity, but some rotational velocity. (an extreme example)
KMaC
Double Eagle Member
If that were true, wouldn't a Boss hold the distance record?
Last time I checked, it was a Valkyrie that took the longest recorded flight of any disc.
This is the DG mis-conception of the century.
A Valk is great with a huge tailwind when accuracy does not matter.
In the real disc golf world when distance and accuracy does matter and the wind can potentially come from any direction, the Boss is boss.
the katana will replace the valk for the record d in 2010.
you can take that to vegas.
you can take that to vegas.
Tossing a disc up is different than driving. When tossing a disc up you would probably have to add a little flick of the wrist to add to the rotational velocity but in driving off a disc golf tee pad you would not want to do this.
In a golf drive the spin comes from when you're hand changes direction and starts moving away from your target but the disc continues moving in the same direction towards your target and rips out of your grip. If the grip is tight enough, the friction caused by the disc ripping out of your hand will cause the right side of the disc to stop abruptly and the left side to continue to move forward at the same speed it was moving. This imparts spin to the disc.
If the grip is loose or if you open your hand to release the disc like is common when throwing a backyard frisbee. The right side of the disc will still be moving at about the same speed as the left side of the disc and the disc will stall as is very common with newer players.
So you could say that armspeed plus tight grip equals spin. Instead, people are saying, this is all too complicated so just know that armspeed is bad because that's what they told me at DGR.
