What do you do with your overweight discs?

[ChrisWoj]

As should everyone, especially when it involves following rules of competition. You don't follow them, then you are simply a cheater. Some people are ok with that and others are not.

You keep throwing the word "cheater" around, but you've thus far failed to demonstrate any way in which a player gains an advantage over the competition that they otherwise could not gain by using legal discs. An appropriate term would be "transgressor." Someone who is willfully breaking the rules to use an overweight Halo Destroyer, for example, could simply choose to throw (depending on the exact shape desired or wind encountered) an XCaliber, or a seasoned Stiletto, or a Rive.

As I said before - if someone is doing something to alter the characteristics of their discs (loading weights into the rim), you're going to be able to hit them on a rules violation without ever breaking out the scale. If they're simply throwing an overweight disc? They're committing a transgression relative to the rules of the game, the person is a "transgressor" but the person is not gaining a material advantage over players seeking out the same shots by throwing discs that are within the regulations stipulated by the PDGA.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

So if a manufacturer is selling new discs overweight/out of spec then what? Player is unknowingly breaking the rules. I can see saying the onus is on the company, for sure.

But then the problem falls onto the player who purchased out of spec discs and if he/she finds them to be out of spec then what? Throw them anyways?

Happensed quite often on the PGA Tour with non conforming drivers. Seems the manufacturers have started making sure their equipment complies ever since. A little enforement could have that effect on disc makers as well.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

You keep throwing the word "cheater" around, but you've thus far failed to demonstrate any way in which a player gains an advantage over the competition that they otherwise could not gain by using legal discs. An appropriate term would be "transgressor." Someone who is willfully breaking the rules to use an overweight Halo Destroyer, for example, could simply choose to throw (depending on the exact shape desired or wind encountered) an XCaliber, or a seasoned Stiletto, or a Rive.

As I said before - if someone is doing something to alter the characteristics of their discs (loading weights into the rim), you're going to be able to hit them on a rules violation without ever breaking out the scale. If they're simply throwing an overweight disc? They're committing a transgression relative to the rules of the game, the person is a "transgressor" but the person is not gaining a material advantage over players seeking out the same shots by throwing discs that are within the regulations stipulated by the PDGA.

I didn't make up the rule, but it is a rule. If you knowingly break a rule and ignore that you did so, you are cheating. It is not a hard concept to grasp. Ball golfers are all fully aware of this concept, which is probably why OMD and I agree on this matter. Yes, you should throw one of those other discs instead. It comers down to integrity and I am fully aware not all people care about it.

 

[ChrisWoj]

I didn't make up the rule, but it is a rule. If you knowingly break a rule and ignore that you did so, you are cheating. It is not a hard concept to grasp. Ball golfers are all fully aware of this concept, which is probably why OMD and I agree on this matter. Yes, you should throw one of those other discs instead. It comers down to integrity and I am fully aware not all people care about it.

You can't just take half of the definition of a word and choose to ignore the other half. By definition, we are not referring to cheaters unless you can, as I requested: "demonstrate any way in which a player gains an advantage over the competition that they otherwise could not gain by using legal discs."

Until you do that, you are failing to sufficiently demonstrate how these players are, by definition of the word, "cheaters." This is why words exist to describe people who do violate rules/regulations without gaining a material advantage, i.e.: "transgressor."

And yes: I'm sure there are plenty of stick golfers who do plenty of things, but they're irrelevant to the conversation. Don't worry, we see your username and are aware of the fact that they exist.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

I didn't make up the rule, but it is a rule. If you knowingly break a rule and ignore that you did so, you are cheating. It is not a hard concept to grasp. Ball golfers are all fully aware of this concept, which is probably why OMD and I agree on this matter. Yes, you should throw one of those other discs instead. It comers down to integrity and I am fully aware not all people care about it.

Cheating involves an intent to gain advantage. People with an understanding of language are fully aware of this concept. Integrity is not the same as adherence to law. In fact, most rule-lovers haven't developed much integrity.

 

[oldmandiscer]

The thing is that there are a lot of specs. You are obsessing over a spec that you feel like you can accurately measure yourself, but what about all the other specs? Are we responsible for checking that all of our small-diameter drivers actually molded out the the 21cm spec? Are we responsible for making sure the flight plate 0f every disc we throw does not exceed 0.5 cm in thickness? Do we have to conduct the leading-edge radius test and Flex test on all of out discs?

You are cherry-picking weight, but a golf disc probably can mold up out of spec in a variety of different ways. The rule has NEVER been that the player has to check these specs OR that the manufacturer has to check the specs of each run. The rule it that they have to submit discs to be approved. After it is approved, the disc is legal.

Manufacturers are not deliberately making overweight discs. They don't want to deal with people like you trying to return a 178g driver. They went to make 175g discs because we as consumers want max weight discs. There is a fine line they are walking, and they probably go over by a gram here and there. The collective of disc golf has shrugged and said they don't care.

Just to play contrarian, it would be difficult for the other specs to fail technical standards as long as the sent disc in was in the most "shrinking" plastic (probably a better word but I'll just go for that). The molds are constructed to very accurate dimensions and unless the dimension was already right on the line, then it wouldn't be able to fail (like a 21.0 disc which I believe by far most drivers and putters are 21.1-21.2). So you would have to overcome two barriers, first the disc was approved near the lowest diameter and next it was approved in a plastic that doesn't shrink as much as the one you bought.Cetainly possible though.

I also personally do not want a 178 gram driver, so to me that is a bigger deal as well. Saying you can't feel a few grams, I certainly can. The fact that it is out of spec just makes it much worse. I don't want to throw a 178 gram driver. I bet others will agree if they have had a scale they can feel the difference. Not to mention, it's not what I ordered in the first place.

Shouldn't you get what you were promised? Forget them being "illegal" or not.

I do agree that us as players shouldn't have to weigh and measure all our discs. I do have calipers btw, and have not found a disc under 21.0. Yeah I'm nerdy like that. I got a scale and calipers. :\

 

[oldmandiscer]

You can't just take half of the definition of a word and choose to ignore the other half. By definition, we are not referring to cheaters unless you can, as I requested: "demonstrate any way in which a player gains an advantage over the competition that they otherwise could not gain by using legal discs."

Until you do that, you are failing to sufficiently demonstrate how these players are, by definition of the word, "cheaters." This is why words exist to describe people who do violate rules/regulations without gaining a material advantage, i.e.: "transgressor."

And yes: I'm sure there are plenty of stick golfers who do plenty of things, but they're irrelevant to the conversation. Don't worry, we see your username and are aware of the fact that they exist.

A heavier driver say 178 will no doubt fight a 25-35+ mph headwind/cross headwind better then a standard weight one say 175. While the difference is small, there is a difference. While it might not benefit me specifically or others (I'd rather throw 175) I can see people who throw 550+ gaining a small advantage.

The disc will penetrate better, not get pushed around as much simply due to it's weight.Hold a line better, be more accurate. etc...

Pro's mostly all throw max weight for a reason. So if you can throw above max weight then you are cheating the competition.

 

[oldmandiscer]

Happensed quite often on the PGA Tour with non conforming drivers. Seems the manufacturers have started making sure their equipment complies ever since. A little enforement could have that effect on disc makers as well.

Yeah I remember drivers were getting measured from players bags and they exceeded the technical specs.

 

[ChrisWoj]

A heavier driver say 178 will no doubt fight a 25-35+ mph headwind/cross headwind better then a standard weight one say 175. While the difference is small, there is a difference. While it might not benefit me specifically or others (I'd rather throw 175) I can see people who throw 550+ gaining a small advantage.

The disc will penetrate better, not get pushed around as much simply due to it's weight.Hold a line better, be more accurate. etc...

Pro's mostly all throw max weight for a reason. So if you can throw above max weight then you are cheating the competition.

The profile of the wing can likewise influence the ease with which a disc can fight a 25-35+ mph driver, and more so than the difference between a 175 vs 178 disc. The difference is small and relative the difference that can be gained by throwing a different mold is negligible. If you handed me a 178 Halo Destroyer vs a 171-175 Gold Line Stiletto in a 25-35+ mph headwind/cross headwind - I'd get the same distance potential and reliability out of the 171-175 GL Stiletto in those conditions thanks to the wing profile.

I see absolutely no evidence of "a player gaining an advantage over the competition that they otherwise could not gain by using legal discs."

People are transgressing, but they are not cheating, by virtue of throwing a disc that is a few grams OW. Show me someone knowingly throwing some 190+g Destroyers and I'll agree we've got a cheater. But, as far as I can tell, no one is coming close to throwing a disc that could even force a conversation regarding whether an advantage is gained.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

You can't just take half of the definition of a word and choose to ignore the other half. By definition, we are not referring to cheaters unless you can, as I requested: "demonstrate any way in which a player gains an advantage over the competition that they otherwise could not gain by using legal discs."

Until you do that, you are failing to sufficiently demonstrate how these players are, by definition of the word, "cheaters." This is why words exist to describe people who do violate rules/regulations without gaining a material advantage, i.e.: "transgressor."

And yes: I'm sure there are plenty of stick golfers who do plenty of things, but they're irrelevant to the conversation. Don't worry, we see your username and are aware of the fact that they exist.

A cheater is someone who violates the rules without accepting the corresponing penalty. There is no correlation with advantage. One would assume tha advantage perspective is part of the criteria which goes into making the rules. You either violate the rule or you don't.

 

[ChrisWoj]

A cheater is someone who violates the rules without accepting the corresponing penalty. There is no correlation with advantage. One would assume tha advantage perspective is part of the criteria which goes into making the rules. You either violate the rule or you don't.

You seem to be struggling with the fact that there are multiple words for different types of violations - you're describing a transgressor.

As for the criteria for what goes into the rules - that is only tangentially related to the topic at hand. To be clear there is no rule in the rulebook that pertains directly to the weight of the disc.

The rule reads:

Discs used in play must meet all of the conditions set forth in the PDGA Technical Standards.

The technical standards for disc golf discs are not all written with the players' ability to gain an advantage in mind. The following is from Lavone Wolfe, the first PDGA Technical Standards Chair:

How much ought a golf disc to weigh? This is most difficult to measure. Lavone Wolfe, the first PDGA Technical Standards chair, recalls: "[Jan] pushed ballistics forward with his penchant for heavy discs. I was one that fought to allow manufacturers like him to work to find the balance between weight, aerodynamics, and ballistics. We lost because of fear of injury and lawsuits. I believe that today the weight limits should be lifted and the players will naturally throw what flies best."

 

[jakebake91]

I also personally do not want a 178 gram driver, so to me that is a bigger deal as well. Saying you can't feel a few grams, I certainly can. The fact that it is out of spec just makes it much worse. I don't want to throw a 178 gram driver. I bet others will agree if they have had a scale they can feel the difference. Not to mention, it's not what I ordered in the first place.

\

I absolutely guarantee you can NOT feel the difference. If Iaid out 10 random Destroyers, 9 of them at a scaled 175 and one at 178, you'd have a 1 in 10 chance of getting it right. It'd be a guess and nothing more.

You're gonna disagree, I know. It's what you do. But I also know you're either wrong or deliberately lying. Because you couldn't. Nobody here could. I don't give a rats a** what you or anyone say. 3 grams to the human body is completely and utterly insignificant.

 

[oldmandiscer]

The profile of the wing can likewise influence the ease with which a disc can fight a 25-35+ mph driver, and more so than the difference between a 175 vs 178 disc. The difference is small and relative the difference that can be gained by throwing a different mold is negligible. If you handed me a 178 Halo Destroyer vs a 171-175 Gold Line Stiletto in a 25-35+ mph headwind/cross headwind - I'd get the same distance potential and reliability out of the 171-175 GL Stiletto in those conditions thanks to the wing profile.

I see absolutely no evidence of "a player gaining an advantage over the competition that they otherwise could not gain by using legal discs."

People are transgressing, but they are not cheating, by virtue of throwing a disc that is a few grams OW. Show me someone knowingly throwing some 190+g Destroyers and I'll agree we've got a cheater. But, as far as I can tell, no one is coming close to throwing a disc that could even force a conversation regarding whether an advantage is gained.

The degree doesn't really matter. Either the rule is being broken or not. Wether it's 178 or 190.

But it's not a major advantage so I can see the point of many. And add to the fact that most don't have a clue if their "175" gram disc is actually 177 or 178.

It's like a foot fault not being called where the player lifted his foot a fraction early or was a couple inches too far from his lie. It's a minor infraction. Not that big of a deal. Just for me personally since I have a scale I can't knowingly throw a disc that is likely overweight and would likely be deemed illegal if weighed by a TD.

 

[oldmandiscer]

I absolutely guarantee you can NOT feel the difference. If Iaid out 10 random Destroyers, 9 of them at a scaled 175 and one at 178, you'd have a 1 in 10 chance of getting it right. It'd be a guess and nothing more.

You're gonna disagree, I know. It's what you do. But I also know you're either wrong or deliberately lying. Because you couldn't. Nobody here could. I don't give a rats a** what you or anyone say. 3 grams to the human body is completely and utterly insignificant.

If I threw them I could tell. But I also play nearly everyday and have a finite feeling for disc weight.

 

[Hampstead]

A finite feeling for disc weight, he said!

 

[ChrisWoj]

I'll take him at his word on that one.

 

[jakebake91]

If I threw them I could tell. But I also play nearly everyday and have a finite feeling for disc weight.

Again, no.

There are a hundred variables to a discs flight, you'd never be able to say, on flight alone, that one was heavier.

I'd be willing to bet I could hand PMcB 10 Zeus's, one of which was 3 grams heavier than the others, and he'd never know which one was heavier, based on feel or flight. It'd be a guessing game.

And I betcha he's more in tune with plastic than yourself.

 

[oldmandiscer]

Again, no.

There are a hundred variables to a discs flight, you'd never be able to say, on flight alone, that one was heavier.

I'd be willing to bet I could hand PMcB 10 Zeus's, one of which was 3 grams heavier than the others, and he'd never know which one was heavier, based on feel or flight. It'd be a guessing game.

And I betcha he's more in tune with plastic than yourself.

Not flight, the weight during the throw.

It would be similar to switching from D2 SW to D3.

 

[Three Putt]

Shouldn't you get what you were promised? Forget them being "illegal" or not.

This is disc golf, the sport that brought you Destrulcans. Getting what we were promised is optional. At least you got the right mold, right?

 

[rocthecourse]

OMD is winning this argument...