What would you do?

[art_vandelay]

Apologize for the snark and I understand what you are saying. I don't go around taking stuff from people as a habit. I deescalated the situation as soon as all the things you are saying went through my mind along with the concept of "Self, don't be a DB. Help the guy out."

 

[d11rok]

Wouldn't that be an interesting interface if a cop came?
Cop to op:: why did you take his disc?
Op: you mean the one with my name and number on the back?

I say again, the finder can never be in the right in this scenario. Finding something that is clearly labeled as someone elses is vastly different than finding something that is not. In the latter case, there is no way to prove ownership.

Also, to those in the thread that say, " just give it to him he is clearly in more need of it"...I sincerely doubt a disc of plastic is going to be life changing and get this guy out of poverty.

 

[Veritas]

Wouldn't that be an interesting interface if a cop came?
Cop to op:: why did you take his disc?
Op: you mean the one with my name and number on the back?

I say again, the finder can never be in the right in this scenario. Finding something that is clearly labeled as someone elses is vastly different than finding something that is not. In the latter case, there is no way to prove ownership.

Also, to those in the thread that say, " just give it to him he is clearly in more need of it"...I sincerely doubt a disc of plastic is going to be life changing and get this guy out of poverty.

The second you give me a reason why you took it, you admit that you took it. Which is the criminal end of this. If you actually own it or not is a civil issue.

Your name on it does not give you ownership of it. The other guy has a story as well. There are lots of ways he could have lawful possession of the disc.

Again, every detail is a "what if" and each "what if" will have it's own outcome. I am just setting the range of outcomes and giving some experienced thoughts.

It is also important to know that the cop is not likely to know anything about disc golf. Even if he does, while it might help in the making peace attempt, if he gets to the application of the law phase, it is what it is.

 

[art_vandelay]

I kind of hope the tread dies out. I think all the usual arguments for both sides of the issue have been made. I posted what happened just because it was an unusual situation. A couple of points to clarify. The guy told me that his friend found it and gave it to him. Not sure that makes any difference. Also, the disc was laying out in the open on the picnic table with the guy about 25 feet away from it when I walked up. For all I know someone may have left it there for me to reclaim. Obviously that's not the case. The bottom line is everyone left with what they came with, we left each other on good terms because I walked back to him to apologize and he accepted it. Maybe I'll see him again and play a round with him and he'll be my new bestie?

 

[d11rok]

Veritas, first thank you for your service; police are all too often put in a bad light when they are indeed true heroes.

I am not too keen on law, so I took a peek at the links below

http://www.legalflip.com/Article.aspx?id=8&pageid=21

https://www.lawnow.org/all-is-not-lost-law-lost-and-found/

I would argue that a disc is under the category of "lost", not "abandoned" nor "misplaced". That said, the original owner is still the rightful owner. In addition, if the finder refuses to give the disc back, it is theft by finding; thus he is liable on both criminal level and on a civil level should the disc be damaged. If the owner cannot be found (ie: unlabeled disc), then the rightful owner is actually the property on which the disc was found. See the second link's case references.

Moral of story: if you find a disc and you don't try to contact the owner, use the lost disc boxes. If the rightful owner doesn't attempt to retrieve the disc, then it is considered abandoned and the finder then and only then gets the disc

 

[Veritas]

Veritas, first thank you for your service; police are all too often put in a bad light when they are indeed true heroes.

I am not too keen on law, so I took a peek at the links below

http://www.legalflip.com/Article.aspx?id=8&pageid=21

https://www.lawnow.org/all-is-not-lost-law-lost-and-found/

I would argue that a disc is under the category of "lost", not "abandoned" nor "misplaced". That said, the original owner is still the rightful owner. In addition, if the finder refuses to give the disc back, it is theft by finding; thus he is liable on both criminal level and on a civil level should the disc be damaged. If the owner cannot be found (ie: unlabeled disc), then the rightful owner is actually the property on which the disc was found. See the second link's case references.

Moral of story: if you find a disc and you don't try to contact the owner, use the lost disc boxes. If the rightful owner doesn't attempt to retrieve the disc, then it is considered abandoned and the finder then and only then gets the disc

Those are certainly "what ifs". But your interpretation is not how it will work at the scene.

I keep saying that ownership of the disc is a civil issue. What you are talking about are issues to be addressed in a civil court, not at the scene of an issue like this. (The disc was "lost" prior to this day)


You don't have to believe me, but I implore you to heed my advice, you can not take things from people.


Again, dealing with the reality of me, a cop, standing in front of you in this situation because the other guy called me....I am investiging a robbery. The second you give me a reason why you took it, is a confession that you took it.

There are a lot of "what ifs" but you took something from someone who called the police. It may be yours, that is a civil issue. You taking it from someone may be criminal.

You can't take things from people, end of story.

 

[Blobfish]

Just out of curiosity, say the other guy called you, the police, and he says this guy (the op) took his disc... When you show up, the op looks shocked and says, "uh, wait what? I didn't take anything. This guy's crazy"

Would you then, without the inadvertent admission of guilt, still believe the guy who called, or would you also see the inked disc and agree that perhaps the caller was a bit nuts? Not saying that he is, just curious how you'd assess the situation with a slightly different reaction from the op where he didn't admit to taking the disc back...


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[Veritas]

Just out of curiosity, say the other guy called you, the police, and he says this guy (the op) took his disc... When you show up, the op looks shocked and says, "uh, wait what? I didn't take anything. This guy's crazy"

Would you then, without the inadvertent admission of guilt, still believe the guy who called, or would you also see the inked disc and agree that perhaps the caller was a bit nuts? Not saying that he is, just curious how you'd assess the situation with a slightly different reaction from the op where he didn't admit to taking the disc back...


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I would conduct an investigation. (Just like I would no matter who called)

Again, using the structure of this issue, when the guy tells me he lost that disc some time ago and the guy he took it from says he came into possession of it in a lawful way sometime ago



....we are back to the reality that the ownership is a civil issue (for a court to decide) but there is the potential of criminal issue still at hand. You can't take stuff from people. End of story.

If the OP takes it and I show up and he says "that guy is crazy, here is my name, I don't know what he is talking about". Well, what can I do? I guess I can't do much. People lie and get away with things all the time


However, if the other guy has some evidence, I am not inclined to give the OP any breaks.

 

[d11rok]

How it works on the scene is one thing based on initial evidence. Those links we're not what ifs...they were facts based on law case files. How the outcome is decided will be based on those.

You say you can't take other people's things...my argument is that statement is to the finder, not the op. The finder can be held criminally and civilly liable, again based on law facts (reference: "larceny by finding"). I agree with you that from your initial point of contact, you have to assume that the caller is the victim, and proceed with labelling the op as the thief. Your words of caution are well taken, indeed

 

[Veritas]

How it works on the scene is one thing based on initial evidence. Those links we're not what ifs...they were facts based on law case files. How the outcome is decided will be based on those.

You say you can't take other people's things...my argument is that statement is to the finder, not the op. The finder can be held criminally and civilly liable, again based on law facts (reference: "larceny by finding"). I agree with you that from your initial point of contact, you have to assume that the caller is the victim, and proceed with labelling the op as the thief. Your words of caution are well taken, indeed

Again, if the guy came into lawful possession of the discs (he was given them, bought them or found them). He will never meet the elements of any crime.

Each crime has conditions called "elements" and among the elements are some really specific things and also something called "mens rea". (Intent)

You are never going to get to intent with the guy that has your disc.

But the guy who took it, again, you can not take things from people.


We can "what if" any situation for eternity. Again, each "what if" leads to its own outcome. What we can do is express what can happen in the form of a range. In this case, at one of that range peace happens. At the other end of that range, the OP goes to jail. Within that range it is very unlikely anything bad happens to the guy who found the disc except he could lose ownership of the disc in a civil judgement.

All the risk was in the OP's actions.


I say again, you can not take things from people.

 

[Keith H]

From a legal position I wonder, if I throw my marked disc with my name and number inadvertently into a pond.. There is a sign that says keep out. I leave my disc in the pond.

2 weeks later my disc shows up for sale at PIAS. It still has my name and phone number on it. Someone else buys my disc from the retail store.

Who legally owns the disc?

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Some info on lost property:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/lost_property

https://www.lawnow.org/all-is-not-lost-law-lost-and-found/

 

[Veritas]

From a legal position I wonder, if I throw my marked disc with my name and number inadvertently into a pond.. There is a sign that says keep out. I leave my disc in the pond.

2 weeks later my disc shows up for sale at PIAS. It still has my name and phone number on it. Someone else buys my disc from the retail store.

Who legally owns the disc?

Well, the person who buys it is in lawful possession of it. Even if someone has a just claim to it. That is for a court to decide.

If you see someone with *your* disc, even if you think it is yours, we are back to one of my central themes...you can not take it from them.

 

[art_vandelay]

So, the only real recourse for the original owner is to take the possessor of the property to court. Which nobody would do over a disc. But common law is pretty clear about favoring the original owner in disputes it seems to me. I'd probably win in court but I could spend an afternoon in jail for trying to take the quickest route from point A to point B. Okay got it.

 

[LaserGlide68]

"I showed him my signature and phone number on the other discs in my bag."

So, you confirm that disc didn't have your # on it? Nice job being a complete dick about a disc.

 

[Veritas]

So, the only real recourse for the original owner is to take the possessor of the property to court. Which nobody would do over a disc. But common law is pretty clear about favoring the original owner in disputes it seems to me. I'd probably win in court but I could spend an afternoon in jail for trying to take the quickest route from point A to point B. Okay got it.

You could have tried talking to him in a warm and civil way.


And if there are charges and they stick, it could be a lot more than an afternoon in jail. Also, you run the risk of a lifetime ban from the property that results in arrest if you violate it. Once again, these things are unlikely, but certainly possible.

 

[art_vandelay]

"I showed him my signature and phone number on the other discs in my bag that was exactly like the disc he had."

So, I confirmed that disc had my name on it? Nice job.

Fixed that for you. Reading comprehension is a skill not everyone has.

 

[LaserGlide68]

"I picked it up and told him it was mine...here look at the signature on the rest of my discs."
"I stuck it in my bag and started to throw my drive."
"My bad angel almost said "shut up or I'll knock you on your butt."
"I also had a 60lb pit bull with me."

Yeah, you sound like a 'fun guy'...

Total dickmove.

 

[ru4por]

"I picked it up and told him it was mine...here look at the signature on the rest of my discs."
"I stuck it in my bag and started to throw my drive."
"My bad angel almost said "shut up or I'll knock you on your butt."
"I also had a 60lb pit bull with me."

Yeah, you sound like a 'fun guy'...

Total dickmove.

Lighten up, Francis. :|

 

[Noill]

^2nd'd

The OP told us a real life story ( making it interesting) with real emotions about this silly little thing called a disc. I want to meet the guy who is throwing my disc too...I want to get all ornery and then just feel bad and gift it away...

+1 on this story
+2 if there were even more drama
-1 if there were a fist fight
-2 if the cops get involved