Acceleration: Late or Smooth?

[MNcyclone]

The problem with everyone regurgitating lines about "late acceleration" is that nobody really knows what it means, especially the people preaching it.

If you told me to accelerate late in the throw and I had no idea how to throw, I would loosely guide my arm into position and then jerk the throw as hard as I can at the end. This is NOT how to throw with "late acceleration".

It doesn't matter how hard you jerk at the end, without proper loading throughout the swing you won't be bombing anything. Imagine it like a lawn mower cord. If you pull really hard on a slack lawnmower cord you will hurt your arm and barely turn the engine. On the other hand, if you start with a taut cord and accelerate throughout the pull you will get your mower started. Jerk = bad.

Late acceleration isn't something that happens by will alone. It is a function of everything that has come before it. It is achieved through mechanics, not a single willful action. You can't just say "hey, I think I will do some late acceleration on this throw!"

 

[dodgeball]

The problem is that until you get the very last part of the throw correct, you won't know how to do any of the rest of that stuff correctly. Done incorrectly you can actually make it impossible to do the end of the throw right.

You can do the late acceleration without any of that stuff. However, even if you do all of that other stuff, not doing the late acceleration will limit how far you can throw by a lot. The late acceleration is emphasized becasue it is the most important part of the throw.

All I know is that concentrating on the last part of the throw or 'hit' has only gotten me so far. It was only when I started working on getting my body more into the throw, ESPECIALLY the hips, that I really started noticing improvement and any real gains in distance. Maybe I still suffering under some misperceptions or misunderstanding about it, but the 'hammer pound' and 'snap' stuff all seem to emphasize arm and shoulder movement too much. How fast u can whip the arm at the last moment seems to me to be mostly limited to everything that comes before it.

The problem with everyone regurgitating lines about "late acceleration" is that nobody really knows what it means, especially the people preaching it.

If you told me to accelerate late in the throw and I had no idea how to throw, I would loosely guide my arm into position and then jerk the throw as hard as I can at the end. This is NOT how to throw with "late acceleration".

It doesn't matter how hard you jerk at the end, without proper loading throughout the swing you won't be bombing anything. Imagine it like a lawn mower cord. If you pull really hard on a slack lawnmower cord you will hurt your arm and barely turn the engine. On the other hand, if you start with a taut cord and accelerate throughout the pull you will get your mower started. Jerk = bad.

Late acceleration isn't something that happens by will alone. It is a function of everything that has come before it. It is achieved through mechanics, not a single willful action. You can't just say "hey, I think I will do some late acceleration on this throw!"

Yes, I agree with everything here. Footwork, proper rotation, adequate reachback all seem to be the unsung parts of the throw. But u need all these as a good foundation for a good throw. Couldn't have said this any better myself.

 

[drickanderson]

:doh:

There is a whole lot of WTF in this thread ..

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[araytx]

When people say "late acceleration," it conjures images of moving slowly up to the the hit and then jerking it really hard at the last second.

Some older pros have been promoting smoothness over anything.

So what should it be? A constant rate of acceleration that avoids an early peak, or an acceleration that occurs at more of an exponential rate at the last instant?

Although Dion Arlyn is talking about distance in his video clinic, he also touches on how to both "be smooth" and "whip it" (accelerate) at the last moment. Someone will find it and post it. Since Dion is a martial arts instructor, his teaching video is spot on on both substance and his delivery.

 

[garublador]

Maybe I still suffering under some misperceptions or misunderstanding about it, but the 'hammer pound' and 'snap' stuff all seem to emphasize arm and shoulder movement too much. How fast u can whip the arm at the last moment seems to me to be mostly limited to everything that comes before it.

It sounds like you do have misconceptions about it. The point of those drills is to teach you how to correctly use your wrist as an additional lever. How your arm moves with respect to your shoulders is an important part of that.

It's not about speed, it's about timing.

You can still get to ~350' or so with fairway drivers without it, but that's probably about where you'll plateau. If you want your fairway drivers to be going 400' or even 420'-450' you'll have to get that very last part of the throw correct. That might mean rebuilding everything else around getting that last part right.

Correct timing will trump physical strength, speed, footwork, reach back and body positioning. That stuff will add to your distance, but someone with good timing and bad "form" will throw farther than someone with good form and bad timing.

MNcyclone is right that most people don't "get it." You can tell because people are spending their time asking about stuff like footwork, acceleration and hip movement when they should be asking about how to get the hammer pound drills right.

 

[Triflusal]

The problem with everyone regurgitating lines about "late acceleration" is that nobody really knows what it means, especially the people preaching it.

If you told me to accelerate late in the throw and I had no idea how to throw, I would loosely guide my arm into position and then jerk the throw as hard as I can at the end. This is NOT how to throw with "late acceleration".

It doesn't matter how hard you jerk at the end, without proper loading throughout the swing you won't be bombing anything. Imagine it like a lawn mower cord. If you pull really hard on a slack lawnmower cord you will hurt your arm and barely turn the engine. On the other hand, if you start with a taut cord and accelerate throughout the pull you will get your mower started. Jerk = bad.

Late acceleration isn't something that happens by will alone. It is a function of everything that has come before it. It is achieved through mechanics, not a single willful action. You can't just say "hey, I think I will do some late acceleration on this throw!"

I really don't understand what you are trying to say here. what do you mean by "proper loading"? also that lawnmower analogy doesnt really make sense compared to a throw. the point of a jerk is not to do it at the start of the motion, but to do it at the end of the motion. And you are also painting late acceleration like your arm goes 2mph and then when it gets to the pec 60mph. That is not really the case, its actually really hard to accelerate fast enough during your motion to hurt yourself.

 

[dodgeball]

It sounds like you do have misconceptions about it. The point of those drills is to teach you how to correctly use your wrist as an additional lever. How your arm moves with respect to your shoulders is an important part of that.

It's not about speed, it's about timing.

You can still get to ~350' or so with fairway drivers without it, but that's probably about where you'll plateau. If you want your fairway drivers to be going 400' or even 420'-450' you'll have to get that very last part of the throw correct. That might mean rebuilding everything else around getting that last part right.

Correct timing will trump physical strength, speed, footwork, reach back and body positioning. That stuff will add to your distance, but someone with good timing and bad "form" will throw farther than someone with good form and bad timing.

MNcyclone is right that most people don't "get it." You can tell because people are spending their time asking about stuff like footwork, acceleration and hip movement when they should be asking about how to get the hammer pound drills right.

Well, maybe when I get to 350, then I can worry about this kind of stuff, lol. But I think there's a lot more players who are trying to consistently get to 350 or even 300, rather than to 400. And I think the only way to get there is by learning and understanding the fundamental parts of the whole throw, not just focusing on one small part of it.

I've done the hammer pound drills and worked on just getting more snap into my throw. Just didn't do it for me. It sounds good but I think it's a little simplistic. You keep talking about timing. I agree it's important, but just by getting timing my wrist bounce perfectly, I'm not going to suddenly start throwing 400'.

I just don't believe there are any short cuts. I've only started making real strides when I got away from focusing on snap and started to focus on getting the whole body into the throw. Talking about timing, this is where that really comes into to my way of thinking. If ur using the whole body, there's a sequence of movements that u need to get right. But when u do, there's more potential for disc speed (cause it ultimatley comes down to this) than just focusing on a small movement at the end.

 

[garublador]

Well, maybe when I get to 350, then I can worry about this kind of stuff, lol. But I think there's a lot more players who are trying to consistently get to 350 or even 300, rather than to 400. And I think the only way to get there is by learning and understanding the fundamental parts of the whole throw, not just focusing on one small part of it.

The hammer pound and then building your throw from the hit back are still the easiest ways to accomplish those goals. Trying to do a dozen tiny things all in the right order in a second or two is not an easy way to learn. You can still build your throw from the hit back without getting the hammer pound.

I've done the hammer pound drills and worked on just getting more snap into my throw. Just didn't do it for me. It sounds good but I think it's a little simplistic. You keep talking about timing. I agree it's important, but just by getting timing my wrist bounce perfectly, I'm not going to suddenly start throwing 400'.

Actually you will start throwing 400'. It really does make that big of a difference.

I just don't believe there are any short cuts.

It's not a short cut. It's still difficult and takes a lot of work to do properly. There are easier and more difficult ways to learn things. These methods have shown to be much more effective than most anything else out there. Go to DGR and ask Blake about his experiences teaching. He's literally worked with hundreds of people.

I've only started making real strides when I got away from focusing on snap and started to focus on getting the whole body into the throw. Talking about timing, this is where that really comes into to my way of thinking. If ur using the whole body, there's a sequence of movements that u need to get right. But when u do, there's more potential for disc speed (cause it ultimatley comes down to this) than just focusing on a small movement at the end.

Giving up on snap is a very normal, and probably sane, thing to do. Most won't ever get it. However, it doesn't make sense to not suggest how to get snap just because not everyone will put the work in to do it. All we can do it put the best information out there and then everyone decides for themselves what to do with it. The fact is that the most power can be generated from getting that last bit of timing correct. It's also the most difficult thing to learn. Learning the rest of the throw is very simple in comparison if you choose the easiest way to learn it.

 

[drickanderson]

If ur using the whole body, there's a sequence of movements that u need to get right. But when u do, there's more potential for disc speed (cause it ultimatley comes down to this) than just focusing on a small movement at the end.

I have to disagree. One of the biggest arms I know throws from a complete standstill. That's not to say he couldn't throw farther with a run-up, but because of a bad knee, he can't. If he can throw over 450' standing still (I think his longest throw is in the 500s), then that tells me that it's ALL about the small movements. If you're strong-arming, then you're actually robbing a lot of distance potential, and no amount of footwork is going to give it back to you.

I had an eye-opening moment one time throwing a meteor out from behind a tree. I was at a weird angle, and couldn't move. I rolled it out to the end of my arm, almost letting it touch my forearm, before engaging my wrist and snapping the disc. It went over 300'. That was an 'ah hah!' moment for me, and I realized what late acceleration truly meant. Hopefully you'll have one of those, maybe not. That's the fun in all of this, isn't it?

 

[Triflusal]

Well, maybe when I get to 350, then I can worry about this kind of stuff, lol. But I think there's a lot more players who are trying to consistently get to 350 or even 300, rather than to 400. And I think the only way to get there is by learning and understanding the fundamental parts of the whole throw, not just focusing on one small part of it.

I've done the hammer pound drills and worked on just getting more snap into my throw. Just didn't do it for me. It sounds good but I think it's a little simplistic. You keep talking about timing. I agree it's important, but just by getting timing my wrist bounce perfectly, I'm not going to suddenly start throwing 400'.

I just don't believe there are any short cuts. I've only started making real strides when I got away from focusing on snap and started to focus on getting the whole body into the throw. Talking about timing, this is where that really comes into to my way of thinking. If ur using the whole body, there's a sequence of movements that u need to get right. But when u do, there's more potential for disc speed (cause it ultimatley comes down to this) than just focusing on a small movement at the end.

adding to what garu has said, blake mentioned in the hammer pound thread that people that he taught it to were throwing 90% of their normal distance with just the hammer pound motion and minimal shoulder rotation. So what this tells me is that the body positions leading up to the hit don't matter nearly as much unless those positions are blocking the hit from happening.

the same goes for the backhand throw. if your shoulder is coming through too fast and too early, you aren't really pounding the hammer.

the "disgusting" part of the backhand version of this throw is that almost everyone is experiencing throws that are within 90% of their "full" throw by using a 6-12" chop and pounding the hammer. no shoulders, no hips, no torso... just a firm hammer pound.

basically, you haven't let go of your previous notion of the throw yet. this is why i have called this a "rethinking" of the throw.

I think that you should go back and really try to learn the timing of the hammer pound before dismissing it.

keep in mind the idea of this technique isn't to try to echo what has already been written or said on the subject many times over.
this is about trying to change the method of viewing the throw in order to yield different results.
the way that many people describe it often isn't what actually happens, and they are describing their intent. most people fail to realize this and end up interpreting it to literally.

any technique can fall into one of the following categories:
1 - doesn't work
2 - works for some
3 - works for most
4 - works for all

obviously, what has already been taught/written in general usually falls into the "works for some" category. the goal here is to re-envision things so that it can be part of the "works for most" category.

when you are trying this you are better off forgetting what you know or believe to know and trying to establish your own unique feel and interpretation of things. if mimicking what someone else said worked, it would have already worked and you probably aren't reading this.

obtaining a different result usually requires a different type of attempt.

 

[MNcyclone]

I really don't understand what you are trying to say here. what do you mean by "proper loading"? also that lawnmower analogy doesnt really make sense compared to a throw. the point of a jerk is not to do it at the start of the motion, but to do it at the end of the motion. And you are also painting late acceleration like your arm goes 2mph and then when it gets to the pec 60mph. That is not really the case, its actually really hard to accelerate fast enough during your motion to hurt yourself.

By "proper loading" I mean that there is force being applied to the disc at all parts of the throw. Most people start their throw too fast, the disc hangs at their right pec, and then their rotation catches up and the disc is jerked from the right pec out. When the disc stops accelerating at the right pec it creates a hitch that takes away velocity.

The lawnmower analogy is actually pretty good imo. Imagine two lawn mower pulls. The first one you pull the cord half way, stop pulling the cord to rotate your body, and then resume pulling the cord the rest of the way with as much force as possible. The second time you pull the cord evenly for the first half while rotating your body, and without stopping pull the second half as hard as you can. Anybody that has started a lawnmower knows that the second pull is better.

The same works for disc golf. You don't want to stop exerting force on the disc as you prepare for "late acceleration". The biggest rips happen when you can feel that disc trying to jump out of your hands from the very start of the pull through the end.

 

[dodgeball]

It's not a short cut. It's still difficult and takes a lot of work to do properly. There are easier and more difficult ways to learn things. These methods have shown to be much more effective than most anything else out there. Go to DGR and ask Blake about his experiences teaching. He's literally worked with hundreds of people.

Giving up on snap is a very normal, and probably sane, thing to do. Most won't ever get it. However, it doesn't make sense to not suggest how to get snap just because not everyone will put the work in to do it. All we can do it put the best information out there and then everyone decides for themselves what to do with it. The fact is that the most power can be generated from getting that last bit of timing correct. It's also the most difficult thing to learn. Learning the rest of the throw is very simple in comparison if you choose the easiest way to learn it.

These two lines seem to contradict each other. If this method really is the most effective teaching method, then why is it the hardest for most people to grasp? Can u see where I have a problem here? Now, it's my inkling that this hammer pound or Blake technique is really for those throwers who have a somewhat grasp of a basic throw. Would u recommend this technique to a complete noob who has no grasp of the fundamentals of a basic throw?

It's not like I don't see any merit in the technique, I just really don't get how it's a power generator. I get the whole tendon bounce thing for the most part. You want to keep your wrist at the optimal tensions, so that when u come through, u transfer the energy that comes before it. But don't u need something to bounce against? If u don't have a solid foundation, it seems u'll never be able to generate power. As to power generators, it makes much more sense to me that u want to use your core and big muscles to achieve this. Sidewinder (among others) talks about this at length and I really agree with this line of thinking. Since I have been getting my core and especially hips into my throws, I'm getting more power and throwing more effortlessly than ever before!

 

[dodgeball]

adding to what garu has said, blake mentioned in the hammer pound thread that people that he taught it to were throwing 90% of their normal distance with just the hammer pound motion and minimal shoulder rotation. So what this tells me is that the body positions leading up to the hit don't matter nearly as much unless those positions are blocking the hit from happening.



I think that you should go back and really try to learn the timing of the hammer pound before dismissing it.

Could a big part of this success be contributed to having a private teacher? Just saying. And can this method really be that effective if so many people have problems grasping the concept of it and have difficulty in implementing it? Shouldn't most everyone on DGCR being throwing 400'+ then? I'm not saying there's not merit to it, but it just seems like one piece of the puzzle, rather than the whole puzzle. I just don't think there's ever a substitute for solid fundamentals.

Anyway, interesting conversation.

 

[sloppydisc]

My guess is that most of us, me included, simply don't put in the work.

 

[Triflusal]

Could a big part of this success be contributed to having a private teacher? Just saying. And can this method really be that effective if so many people have problems grasping the concept of it and have difficulty in implementing it? Shouldn't most everyone on DGCR being throwing 400'+ then? I'm not saying there's not merit to it, but it just seems like one piece of the puzzle, rather than the whole puzzle. I just don't think there's ever a substitute for solid fundamentals.

Anyway, interesting conversation.

I could start a poll asking how often people field practice and i guarantee the majority of players do it less than once per week.

anyway, lots of people have misunderstood the hammer pound method and just ditched it after a few times of trying. even if they were doing a decent amount of field practice they just probably aren't practicing it.

 

[jenb]

I field practice every day, and I can easily grasp the idea of "putting in the work" on putting. But how do you " put in the work" on hitting it? Even Blake seems to throw up his hands at developing a drill that guides us to truly "hitting it," and challenges us to come up with something. I should add, I do the hammer pound as part of my pre shot routine.

 

[araytx]

Dion Arlyn Discraft Clinic

Try this link:

www.discraft.com/vid/html/dg25.html

 

[notapro]

I field practice every day, and I can easily grasp the idea of "putting in the work" on putting. But how do you " put in the work" on hitting it? Even Blake seems to throw up his hands at developing a drill that guides us to truly "hitting it," and challenges us to come up with something. I should add, I do the hammer pound as part of my pre shot routine.

Isn't the hammer pound drill designed for that exact reason? I guess "putting in the work" would be actually going out and doing fieldwork, utilizing the things learned in the hammer pound drill.

In other words, working on the hammer pound drill and occasionally seeing the progress, if any, by actually throwing the discs instead of doing the drills.

 

[Triflusal]

Try this link:

www.discraft.com/vid/html/dg25.html

dion mentioned that most of the ideas in this were concepts from DGR. He said thats how he learned how to throw.