Is this a Foot Fault?

[NOStheBOSS]

Rules in every sport are designed to provide a fair playing field for all players. With every rule, there is an element of advantage/disadvantage. This is huge in Basketball. I always hear some yahoo in the stands while, as a ball handler is dribbling up the court unguarded, yells "that's a carry!" Is his palm going under the ball and creating extended contact with it? maybe. Is he gaining an advantage by doing so? No. Fans don't know what they want; when their own player is getting contacted they scream bloody murder, when the ball is on the other end, of course they want to "let 'em play." That's a whole other topic

The same applies to disc golf. I see players "foot fault" on long fairway drives all. the. time. Did they gain an advantage by doing so? I don't think so. And usually when a player foot faults on a putt, they miss. So you would actually be helping them out by calling it. Also a lot of the time, a player might hit a huge or difficult putt but also foot fault. However, that person isn't playing well and really isn't in contention. The sport is about fun, and on some days a player might only have one "fun" throw and I'm not going to be the one to penalize them. I.e. a basketball team is losing by 40 points and a player gets away with a small travel in order to score a bucket.

Conclusion (TLDR): If you are playing for something and the score is close AND a player gets an advantage by breaking the rules, it should be called. otherwise, rules should not be used just for the sake of being absolutely correct and ruining the fun of the sport.

I'm sure I will get an "integrity of the sport" reply to this but this is just how I am inclined to believe the sport should be played.

 

[rd.bittle]

Those pants he is wearing should be illegal!

I agree with Dave on this call.

 

[tampora]

The walking-putt thing is an instance where the tie should NOT go to the runner (thrower), in my opinion. No legal action should be so incredibly near illegal that people examining freeze-frames can't even come to a consensus on what actually happened.

 

[Teebird Elvis]

He's holding the disc and has one foot supported behind his lie and the other is in the air. That's not illegal.

I never said it was illegal, I say it is a stupid rule, he is clearly past his marker with the disc still in his hand.

 

[Teebird Elvis]

The walking-putt thing is an instance where the tie should NOT go to the runner (thrower), in my opinion. No legal action should be so incredibly near illegal that people examining freeze-frames can't even come to a consensus on what actually happened.

^That
Sometimes it is legal, sometimes it isn't, and as you pointed out, freeze frame shots are still indistinguishable. When people are constantly on the edge of cheating it really takes away from the game and enjoying the game when you have to watch every putt and be constantly ready to call a fault because it is always borderline.

 

[bombmk]

I never said it was illegal, I say it is a stupid rule, he is clearly past his marker with the disc still in his hand.

He can be as far past the marker he wants, with his disc in hand still - as long as he is in contact with his lie when he releases and not having a supporting point in front of it.

There is something in your comments that gives me the sense that you do not quite understand the rule.

That being said, I agree on your sentiment that it is somewhat a problem that you so many times are left with the "was that a foot fault?" sensation.

 

[araytx]

Air does provide buoyancy so that is support in the strictest sense, so I wonder if that is legal to use that argument.

I fear that again, this is pushing the hairy edge of legality and I do not see it clearly as illegal:

It is so hard to tell when his heel touches the ground and when the disc departs his fingertips.

To me there is no question this is not a "foot fault," aka stance violation. This is the closest thing anyone has said, that you "can't tell" when the left foot touches back down before he releases the disc. But I guess if people disagree that Dave's right foot is on the ground behind the marker, his left foot is NOT on the ground, and the disc has already been released, then the argument is not about rule, but instead about judgment.

Now, to me, most players I see who truly jump-putt (as opposed to "putt-jump") typically with the pivot foot (right for RH players) are making a violation.

 

[Teebird Elvis]

That being said, I agree on your sentiment that it is somewhat a problem that you so many times are left with the "was that a foot fault?" sensation.

As said earlier, when you need still frame photography to determine if a foot fault is happening or not, then the rule is too vague. An idea I had was if your head was not allowed to go past the marked point of lie until after the disc is released, it would eliminate this borderline, hair splitting problem.

 

[Teebird Elvis]

This pic shows that the whole philosophy of playing it where it lies is completely out the window with the current rules. I would like to see a ball golfer get away with putting a few feet closer than where the ball was marked. It really shows the lack of professionalism in the rules of the game.

*upon further examination, I believe his complete upper torso is beyond the marked lie.

 

[JC17393]

As said earlier, when you need still frame photography to determine if a foot fault is happening or not, then the rule is too vague. An idea I had was if your head was not allowed to go past the marked point of lie until after the disc is released, it would eliminate this borderline, hair splitting problem.

The rule isn't vague, it's actually pretty clear cut. It's the judgment that isn't always clear. I'd be hard pressed to find a way to write the rule that makes even the closest calls absolutely, leave no doubt crystal clear. No matter where you draw the proverbial line, close calls are going to remain the toughest to judge.

I don't really think your idea for using the location of the thrower's head to be any better. In fact, I think that it is far more vague and difficult to judge. My normal putting stance involves my head being at the very least directly over my mark if not in front of it as I lean toward the target. I'm not even going to get into the notion of watching a full run-up and follow through on the fairway and being able to judge where the thrower's head is at full speed. I think this would introduce a whole new and much larger set of "borderline, hair splitting" problems.

 

[Dave242]

the number of jump putters already airborne when releasing the disc is so great, it just becomes futile to call it.

You were challenged to find some pictures/videos to back up your assertion and came up with this:

My favorite example, you are taught to be in the air while jump putting. Watch the slow motion at 3:16, Paul is well into the air when he releases the disc.

When freeze frame evidence was shown you to be incorrect you came up with another (Feldberg walk-putt) and also shown it was not a clear violation. So, you came up with this statement:

As said earlier, when you need still frame photography to determine if a foot fault is happening or not, then the rule is too vague. An idea I had was if your head was not allowed to go past the marked point of lie until after the disc is released, it would eliminate this borderline, hair splitting problem.

Another idea would be to go back to your first statement and call violations when they are clearly happening.

Another way of thinking of it that might be helpful to you is that the "real rule" of fairness to be broken or "real line" of fairness to be crossed is well passed where it is defined today by the rules. So, when people are pushing the rules now and possibly even just nudging past them, they are actually only approaching the line or fairness that really cannot be broken without giving an unfair advantage to the violator.

 

[Teebird Elvis]

Another way of thinking of it that might be helpful to you is that the "real rule" of fairness to be broken or "real line" of fairness to be crossed is well passed where it is defined today by the rules. So, when people are pushing the rules now and possibly even just nudging past them, they are actually only approaching the line or fairness that really cannot be broken without giving an unfair advantage to the violator.

It really seems some of you are only concerned with winning. I am not meaning that in a derogatory way, it just seems you have blinders on. These foot faults and questionable foot faults extend from a lack of integrity. Just because a rule exists does not make it right or wrong, that is why rules change. If seeing Feldberg's body completely past the marker except for a toe behind the marker, still with the disc in his hand, if that doesn't make you cringe, then you are probably not looking at it with your mind directed towards 'does this look appropriate?'. I am all for momentum, and your body going past the marker after you released the disc when you were behind it is not a problem. Ron Russell beat Ken Climo in Climo's prime, and I don't think Ron Russell has ever come close to a foot fault, at least not making a long putt. That to me was a true Disc Golf Champion, beating the best in a way that doesn't question if he was borderline faulting.

Enough on this subject though, I would just encourage everyone to start calling out all jump putts and step over putts.

 

[Dave242]

If seeing Feldberg's body completely past the marker except for a toe behind the marker, still with the disc in his hand, if that doesn't make you cringe, then you are probably not looking at it with your mind directed towards 'does this look appropriate?'.

From an officiating perspective, I look at things through a lens of legality and fairness. From a personal perspective, sportsmanship is right up there with those 2.

I do not know what "appropriate" means in how you are using it....but it sounds like it is closely linked to integrity in your mind. I do not get it since I look through a different lens I guess.

We have the rules and the "rules are the rules". As a self-policing sport, we are all officials. If you personally do not like jump putts or walk putts, join the rules committee and get the rule changed.

My guess is that there are probably lots of people who feel like you do......and I will join your ranks if I start seeing a ton of indisputable evidence that people are crossing lines to gain an unfair advantage, and those violations are not being called. To date I have seen nothing captured on video (or still).....and I haven't spent much time looking. .....and my voice doesn't matter anyhow since I am just lapsed member random internet poster.

 

[Halcón]

Ahem. -clears throat-



Stand and deliver.



That is all.

 

[craftsman]

It seems like some folks act as if a walking putt is some easy cheat.
Imho, this is not the case, and in my exp, its been one of the most frustrating shots to practice.
I am always impressed to see a good walking putt

I dont see any questionable legality in dave's pic.

imho, to pretend these putts cast a shadow on dg is silly and would be like saying the requirements of a td in football does the same.

 

[craftsman]

Ahem. -clears throat-



Stand and deliver.



That is all.

Are you a spin putter?

 

[craftsman]

It really seems some of you are only concerned with winning. I am not meaning that in a derogatory way, it just seems you have blinders on. These foot faults and questionable foot faults extend from a lack of integrity. Just because a rule exists does not make it right or wrong, that is why rules change. If seeing Feldberg's body completely past the marker except for a toe behind the marker, still with the disc in his hand, if that doesn't make you cringe, then you are probably not looking at it with your mind directed towards 'does this look appropriate?'. I am all for momentum, and your body going past the marker after you released the disc when you were behind it is not a problem. Ron Russell beat Ken Climo in Climo's prime, and I don't think Ron Russell has ever come close to a foot fault, at least not making a long putt. That to me was a true Disc Golf Champion, beating the best in a way that doesn't question if he was borderline faulting.

Enough on this subject though, I would just encourage everyone to start calling out all jump putts and step over putts.

So integrity is calling out all jps n wps reguardless of legality?...thanks for setting that example

 

[Halcón]

Are you a spin putter?

No. More of a push putter. Why?

 

[DeadEye]

These threads always bring out the most close minded people.

Ooo Ooo. I know. Lets all change Disc Golf to Ball Golf. No run-ups, no follow through, hell... in fact.. Lets eliminate all hip rotation at all. From now on, every throw has to be flat footed, hips pointed directly at the target, and all you get to use is your arm.. Don't let me catch you using your hips!!!

 

[Teebird Elvis]

When freeze frame evidence was shown you to be incorrect

That statement is incorrect. He is clearly in the air before releasing the disc. You disagree with that, and I respect that, I expect you to respect a differing point of view. Asking for evidence, then claiming the evidence is incorrect is childish, and I am not going down that path.