~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[sidewinder22]

-in a RHFH shot I still brace my trailing shoulder, this case right shoulder against plant/left leg. I do not have the shoulder unit now as part of the swing, as the right shoulder is essentially on the axis. This is why FH inherently has less distance capability from backhand?

RHBH you got correct. RHFH is incorrect. The left arm/shoulder is still the anchor/leverage point for the shoulders/arm/disc to orbit around. FH has less distance potential because you can't "reachback" nearly as far or swing nearly as long and create the same angles, and can't grip the disc on the opposite side of the disc resulting in less leverage and spin.

 

[slowplastic]

RHBH you got correct.

Excellent, this feels like a huge conceptual breakthrough that is automatically putting me in the right looking/feeling positions without having to think about much. Kind of like how the pro's make every shot have the same fundamentals no matter if they are steep hyzer or anny, low power or high power, etc.

RHFH is incorrect. The left arm/shoulder is still the anchor/leverage point for the shoulders/arm/disc to orbit around. FH has less distance potential because you can't "reachback" nearly as far or swing nearly as long and create the same angles, and can't grip the disc on the opposite side of the disc resulting in less leverage and spin.

So a RHFH will have the left shoulder as that anchor point, but a LHBH will have the right shoulder as the anchor point? So the tilt is slightly different between the two even though they both move the same direction?

In RHFH I definitely feel like as the swing is happening, my right shoulder goes over my plant instep. It feels very in balance and powerful/efficient. Changing this to my left shoulder as a fulcrum makes the swing feel way longer and way out to the side. Longer feels slower...but likely that's a false feeling because it should make the end point of the swing be moving way faster.

This is likely why my max FH D is in that 375-400' range while Sexton can throw FH hyzers that far?

 

[sidewinder22]

So a RHFH will have the left shoulder as that anchor point, but a LHBH will have the right shoulder as the anchor point? So the tilt is slightly different between the two even though they both move the same direction?

In RHFH I definitely feel like as the swing is happening, my right shoulder goes over my plant instep. It feels very in balance and powerful/efficient. Changing this to my left shoulder as a fulcrum makes the swing feel way longer and way out to the side. Longer feels slower...but likely that's a false feeling because it should make the end point of the swing be moving way faster.

This is likely why my max FH D is in that 375-400' range while Sexton can throw FH hyzers that far?

IDT the tilt is much different, the stance is different with the front foot more open. I feel my left shoulder anchored/leveraged right behind the left foot and right shoulder orbit more around both but finishing on the left foot with right shoulder pointed at apex.

This throw absolutely parked a 520' hole, slightly downhill, also chained out BH on it. Former world & distance champ said he had not seen a FH like mine other than Stokely. I was throwing FH further than Jerm and Avery when I played with them and I'm like half their size. The only player that has impressed me in person with their FH distance is Wysocki. I'm sure Eagle would too, but all those guys are orangutans.

Avery's hands are ginormous. I felt like a baby shaking his hand.

McBeth also has long arm and huge hands = ridiculous natural leverage:

 

[Mocheez]

It's awesome how far your elbow is extended from your body. That dispels the notion of keeping your elbow tied to your hip. The disc starts behind your back then extends outward four feet to the other side of the teepad.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah that gif really illustrates how you anchor the left shoulder and have a super long and wide swing.

500'+ FH, no matter some downhill is crazy. At some point a driver is going to stable up unless you torqued it over like crazy, or you have ridiculous exit velocity like you do.

 

[slowplastic]

I got to throw a few discs with this feeling, couldn't video assess and micro-adjust things along the way but just went for the feel and it was easy to throw consistent. I don't think I'm getting centered over the brace leg perfectly, and I'm not pulling through my core, but I could definitely feel the balance and ease. Stable-overstable discs were holding very very straight for a long time, discs with a touch of turn were turning more and longer but still acting spin-stable in the finish. Definitely felt like I kept a ton of leverage/spin but gained a little oomph.

Balance is looking best it's been even though I didn't have the time to analyze and change details along the way.

Right direction I think. The load and ejection looks best it's been. Thoughts for the ever painful to see arm slot or other things I'm not even aware of yet?

https://vimeo.com/294477928

 

[sidewinder22]

Stokely has always said "FH elbow in" is the biggest myth in disc golf and calls it rexing, and I agree. It's like trying to throw with tiny t-rex arms.

 

[sidewinder22]

I got to throw a few discs with this feeling, couldn't video assess and micro-adjust things along the way but just went for the feel and it was easy to throw consistent. I don't think I'm getting centered over the brace leg perfectly, and I'm not pulling through my core, but I could definitely feel the balance and ease. Stable-overstable discs were holding very very straight for a long time, discs with a touch of turn were turning more and longer but still acting spin-stable in the finish. Definitely felt like I kept a ton of leverage/spin but gained a little oomph.

Balance is looking best it's been even though I didn't have the time to analyze and change details along the way.

Right direction I think. The load and ejection looks best it's been. Thoughts for the ever painful to see arm slot or other things I'm not even aware of yet?

Way too diagonal and flat footed plant. The rest of your body ends up behind your heel or right side of tee pad. Your right shoulder stays behind your heel and hip. Plant toes first, then crush the can with heel/gravity and bring your shoulder forward over your hip and toes.

 

[slowplastic]

Ok I can feel that. Definitely knew I was too far behind plant heel after looking at the video once home, but your description makes me feel the difference.

I had right shoulder too far behind heel, and it felt like it moved sideways then backwards. Rereading your feel description from that marked up bird's eye throw, I can feel how you say the right shoulder shifts targetward to plant foot, left shoulder kind of helps it there, and I feel that leverage before it gets unwound around and finally back. Feels almost like it's getting compressed forwards before being unwound.

 

[rhatton1]

Jees, I want to see more of your sidearm from that view. It's glorious. It's the width I always try to get too, think I've achieved, see videos of myself and realise I'm nowhere near.

 

[Hoeschel]

Maybe i'm misinterpreting what i read (and see) but I think this idea that you should be using your arm is holding you back. If you want to use your body as a chain of levers your arm should be a lever as well.

Look at this shot from Matt Orum: http://www.watchframebyframe.com/watch/yt/ihSopkYMEFA/691.2619163333334

Does it match where you think you should be going fast? To me it seems like he is just getting the disc away from his body and then all the acceleration happens between frame 041476 and frame 041480 (you have to set the controls to 60fps and click on the time to see the frames).

Have you tried to throw like that, with an almost extended arm? For me it is so much easier to feel the whip going through my whole body this way. It also makes "using the arm" feel pretty pointless.

 

[slowplastic]

Maybe i'm misinterpreting what i read (and see) but I think this idea that you should be using your arm is holding you back. If you want to use your body as a chain of levers your arm should be a lever as well.

Look at this shot from Matt Orum: http://www.watchframebyframe.com/watch/yt/ihSopkYMEFA/691.2619163333334

Does it match where you think you should be going fast? To me it seems like he is just getting the disc away from his body and then all the acceleration happens between frame 041476 and frame 041480 (you have to set the controls to 60fps and click on the time to see the frames).

Have you tried to throw like that, with an almost extended arm? For me it is so much easier to feel the whip going through my whole body this way. It also makes "using the arm" feel pretty pointless.

Yeah I think you're right. I've always started the arm too early, and even though I now feel like I don't gas it until the power pocket I think I'm trying to keep it in the right place along the way or something like that which is what leads to that hand up position.

Although it feels to me that's the same point I start the throw, I think I'm trying to keep my arm wide and get to that elbow forward position...so I just arrive there when it seems right then throw. Rather than having the arm more long and loose and having to get pulled there from my torso so it stays connected, and then adding to it.

 

[slowplastic]

Really trying to drill myself to not use the arm to "get to" the power pocket and hit, but instead stay in leverage until that point. Does this feel sound correct with a hammer swaying back and forth:

-rear foot plants, right shoulder centered over rear foot to leverage backswing
-right shoulder slides/transitions targetward as plant toes touch...feels lateral and like I'm sliding front shoulder over or to the brace
-plant heel down, weight brings arm and hammer in leverage forward
-left shoulder feels centered over plant foot, this feels like beginning of outward swing
-swing happens, feels very "forward" or open almost, because of waiting for left shoulder to arrive. This open feeling is akin to "belt buckle to the pitcher" batting swing

In more simple sequence...it just feels like I'm waiting for my left shoulder to get over my right foot and my belt buckle to face 10:30 to swing.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think so, I haven't really thought about the mechanics of the actual hammer, you just feel it. I think there can be a slight difference with the heel plant between hammer and disc. Heavier object is slower swing so it needs to get more forward. Disc is light and faster swing and can wait to swing until after heel plants, or allows the front shoulder/arm/disc to swing further back. Use the front shoulder to battering ram the swing forward or diagonal(inside/out).

 

[slowplastic]

Use the front shoulder to battering ram the swing forward or diagonal(inside/out).

This makes sense with what I'm feeling I think. Battering ram/body check front shoulder feeling to the plant foot and it keeps the right arm in tension loaded back. After that I feel like my left shoulder is posted up on the plant instep, I'm facing 10:30 somehow, and time to swing for right field.

I feel like I'm finally getting over to the front leg rather than being held back and jutting forward like before...but not at the risk of going over the top at all. That was happening while I was trying to adjust, I felt like it was a fine balance between getting there or "arriving" right vs. going over the top...now these motions just feel in leverage.

 

[sidewinder22]

-in a RHBH I brace my left/trailing shoulder on the right/brace leg. This makes my entire shoulder unit a lever on the "swing side" of the throw, and the hit point is way out front since this is a one handed swing and the trailing arm doesn't need to be attached.


Here is an illustration showing how I was thinking about tilted spiral compared to what I now am seeing and feeling.

I thought the tilted spiral was the spine axis, and how it pivoted/swiveled targetward with the butt countering the chest/shoulders. This is as in the McBeth image.

Now I am feeling that the tilted spiral is actually an imagined axis from rear shoulder to plant leg, and it allows the entire shoulder unit to be the first lever of the pendulum.

If this is correct, I've been essentially missing an entire pendulum multiplier, that also happens to be the first pendulum of the sequence and a long one as it's the length of my left shoulder to right shoulder? This would almost be like comparing a beginner who rounds their throw to my current form that has the upper arm to elbow lever added...and why pro's have another 100'+ from me?

The fulcrum is leveraged from the left foot instep in the backswing and shifts to the fulcrum to front right foot like your Drew pic to initiate the forward swing. You can see how Brinster initiated all the leverage/momentum from the rear foot ground up through knee and left shoulder ends up accelerated faster away from the left foot and finishes right over front foot on the tilted spiral.

 

[slowplastic]

I really think I'm seeing/feeling that. I was looking at those sequences in the past relative to the spine. now I'm feeling it with right shoulder in backswing, left shoulder in forward swing. Makes sense with everything I have seen hundreds of times and can now see it new again.

Bringing left shoulder to right instep also makes the balance in the Hershyzer rear leg counter move feel very balanced.

As well in that sequence you reposted, I can understand how getting to the second last frame feels easy still, getting the left shoulder in place and the power pocket happens, while the last frame is really the outward swing.

 

[Hoeschel]

I've been thinking about what i feel is missing in your throw a bit and i think i figured it out.

You get into that beto position where the angle between upper and lower arm is very narrow. However, I feel like that angle should never be much below 90 degrees. If you think about the throw as a chain of levers, i feel like there is no way to extend that chain to the lower arm if the hinge at the elbow is collapsed like yours is. My intuition about physics tells me that pulling the elbow orthogonal to the line the disc is moving on will net you the most acceleration. There is no way to do that with a narrow angle.

You can confirm this by looking at pro-throws filmed from a birds-eye-perspective. All of the ones i could find had that angle at approximately 90 degrees at the start of the hit. No one gets to that beto position.

 

[Hoeschel]

Thinking about it again, i guess you can have leverage on the lower arm with a narrow angle if you get that elbow far forward and REALLY stiffen up your shoulder. But it still feels less powerful and harder to time than just having everything at 90°. I'd also imagine i'd get a sore shoulder regularly.

 

[billyjacko]

Oh god, it's so hard to look at.