Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[Sheep]

OT did a video recently where they are stating you need to just roll the disc over like you're turning the key to get the nose down.

The problem is.. They are not taking into account all the other factors involved.


What works for some wont work for others, Why? Their grip doesn't work for that method. Their body is litterally not caipable of flexing that way.

Ever played with those folks that are new and naturally throw nose down?
Their body just naturally does it with less effort, its not cause they are pouring coffee a certain way or turning a key.



The funnier part about the flip the disc over thing that OT put out is that you're essentially flipping the nose of the disc over your hand.



As you can see here where I was shooting 3000 FPS high speed.

The blue tape indicates the "assumed" nose of the disc.
And you can see as the disc leaves the hand.. That is not the nose.
No amount of coffee pouring or flipping discs over your hand is going to cause that nose to go down.

The key to getting the nose down is setting your body up in a fashion that allows your wrist to flex on line with the target not causing the disc to come off plane.



here is another image where the tape was directed into my palm.
My theory was the nose was the opposite of your hand.

The nose is not 90° to your hand, its more like 120° to your hand.
And when you get some understanding of this, its easier to throw nose down.

But you must also grip the disc in a fashion that works with the flexation of your wrist.

And I figured out how to teach players to do that with the stokley nose down video, it kinda worked by accident.

But if you're gripping the disc poorly, no amount of stupidity is going to fix your nose issue.

 

[Sheep]

Now here is the link for you to watch.
And pete here goes over the same info I just did. "what we think is the nose isn't the nose." Which is really good. Because what everyone teaches is the nose is incorrect.

I think part of the over arching issue is that we don't really look deep enough into some of these topics and we just kinda accept these really poor standards of explanation.

I think he does a good job of explaining this stuff and showing everyone real information vs random BS that everyone else is trying to do.

I think the big issue with this new turn the key thing is that its being presented as a fix, not necessarily part of the total picture.

So now were going to have peopl,e trying to flip discs over like that and throwing annies into the turf and going "i dont get it."

But as well, I don't really like the idea of the fix for "nose" being "Present off axis torque to push the nose down."
Nor have I ever really hard of the whole push your thumb down to pop the nose up on an air bounce either.

 

[Sheep]

 

[Sheep]

When I should have made the video's, but I wanted to present better quality.

And .. *facepalm*

 

[Sheep]

 

[Casey 1988]

I was nose downing a disc in beginning of playing disc gold in 2004 because I was told to point nose of disc into ground when I moved up from my Putter and a Wham-O 145 gram mold/Jr Pro, however I figured out I was doing all my drives wrong. I took a while later to find out in corrections I was driving low from waist/upper pelvic height as well, why discs left my hand low already and from then on I was throwing from upper belly button or lower ribcage unless I needed a waist shot. Problem is I was copying players who were very tall in 2000's and could in pictures demonstrating get away with playing so low in swing of drive but I had no clue these players were playing with an OS disc off the tee Pad and doing a type of Hyzer bending body in a way I physically can't do ever.

Yes, these same videos assume you are either a Raw beginner who is doing a very poor airball putt type throw or the lanky/skinny high rated pro wo can gumby themselves doing what Eagle, Simon Lizotte and some other skinny players do on a backhand.

 

[Sewer bill]

It's not about what works and what actually yields results. It's about clicks and selling crap.

 

[itlnstln]

Now here is the link for you to watch.
And pete here goes over the same info I just did. "what we think is the nose isn't the nose." Which is really good. Because what everyone teaches is the nose is incorrect.

I think part of the over arching issue is that we don't really look deep enough into some of these topics and we just kinda accept these really poor standards of explanation.

I think he does a good job of explaining this stuff and showing everyone real information vs random BS that everyone else is trying to do.

I think the big issue with this new turn the key thing is that its being presented as a fix, not necessarily part of the total picture.

So now were going to have peopl,e trying to flip discs over like that and throwing annies into the turf and going "i dont get it."

But as well, I don't really like the idea of the fix for "nose" being "Present off axis torque to push the nose down."
Nor have I ever really hard of the whole push your thumb down to pop the nose up on an air bounce either.

I saw Pete's vid and it made way more sense than OT's. I don't have nose down issues on low "laser beams," but I don't throw with height very well, so I thought I'd give it a shot to see if it might help.

I throw with the Climo grip just to get that out of the way. The first few attempts on my normal lines were pretty successful. I didn't get as much speed on the disc, but the nose was way down. No flutter to speak of, either. When I tried throwing more of a distance line, I couldn't really get enough power behind the shot. I think there's something there, though

I think one problem is that my palm wants to turn down in my follow through, so the clockwise key turn fights against my natural movement. There might be a more subtle motion, like something similar to Blake's push-a-quarter-on-the-table move that might work. If you're throwing flat or nose down already, it doesn't take much key turn to get the nose super down

 

[Casey 1988]

It's not about what works and what actually yields results. It's about clicks and selling crap.

Mainly all the ad money from YouTube.

 

[Sheep]

It's not about what works and what actually yields results. It's about clicks and selling crap.

Yeah, I'm really getting fed up with this and the defense of the people who are putting out the videos.

I'm willing to speak up about it. I don't want to gatekeep folk from entering the race. But state your credentials accurately.

Pete has been doing stuff for a while. I remember some of his older videos. But the key to the video's I posted here are that he's not presenting the information in some fashion that is bad. He's giving information, showing you what it does and providing context.

The issue we get with some of the people who probably shouldn't be making content is that they don't have the understanding and experience to do what Pete here is doing. Explaining all the things properly. They are pretending to be experts to garner views, while they are not.

It really just makes me want to stop bothering with all of it all together, discussing things in here, worrying about any online coaching anything. Just keep giving my in person lessons and stop bothering with internet folk.

And.. Maybe I am unintentionally gate keeping, but some folk I've talked to and listened to them try and argue their points from a place of no experience, and they are going to tell others they are wrong ,but turn around and make expert level video's. its just.. I'm over it I guess.

I did, however, get a bit clickbaity with this post to spur discussion. Because this is a hot topic right now with the wrist flip stuff and nose angle. I've been pounding nose angle in throwing for a while now, I've been pounding grip even more recently and other things. And, the even more annoying part is seeing content come out on it. And.. It's annoying, cause they are telling half or less than half of the information for the full picture.

But it yields results and clicks and selling crap. It doesn't benefit our community. So then I get stuck in conversations with students or other people about trying to perform these "tricks" like I did last night at my league where a power thrower was trying to figure out the key turn thing.
So I explained the other concepts that nobody else is talking about, even pete, and he was like "oh dang, that's a lot."

Maybe it's just me being grumpy cause people are half assing stuff and were all left to clean up the pieces while our voice isn't really considered whatsoever.

 

[Sheep]

I think one problem is that my palm wants to turn down in my follow through, so the clockwise key turn fights against my natural movement. There might be a more subtle motion, like something similar to Blake's push-a-quarter-on-the-table move that might work. If you're throwing flat or nose down already, it doesn't take much key turn to get the nose super down

That's kind of the issue I have with this.
It's not really a natural movement. And ... I honestly don't see pro's doing it either.

But what I can say is that what most people who have good grip and good articulation might be suffering from is doing the opposite of what he's talking about and imparting bad OAT into the disc that pops the nose up in the follow through.

 

[Sheep]

Mainly all the ad money from YouTube.

I feel like I wore you all down hard enough to see this finally. hahahahaha.

like my anger isn't because they are bad people or idiots.
It's because its all about the money and the clicks and subscribers. They dont' care about working together unless you bring them money/subs. They don't necessarily care if all the information is in the video. It's about getting the video out first and getting people on your content quickly so you get the clicks and the subs and the money.

The information accuracy feels like its not even in the top 5 of the priorities of a lot of the youtube coaches.

 

[auzcar]

I do not have enough knowledge about this to add much to the discussion but I can share my own experience since this is the thing I've worked on the most during my so called disc golf "career". Nose angle that is, mostly trying to throw nose down.

I've watched a lot of videos with tips and tricks to throw nose down and not one of them have worked well. They either flat out didn't work or they felt extremely forced and awkward (or both). The pouring coffee felt very forced and tensed me up, which led to other problems while not changing the nose angle that much. For a long time I tried to force my grip in a lot of different ways to make the disc come out nose down, which also felt awkward. I had more success with angeling the side opposite to my hand down (with my grip) than I did pouring coffee, this at least didn't feel as tense and awkward.

What worked best for me other than simply the process of trial and error was to think about the nose as a point inbetween what is commonly referred to as the nose and the point opposite of my hand. IE much like described in Sheep's initial post. I then just think about wanting to get that point of the disc down a bit and my body pretty much does the rest.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that none of the commonly taught tips and tricks worked for me and in the end it was mostly just figuring out what I really wanted to do and then just do it.

 

[Sewer bill]

Yeah, I'm really getting fed up with this and the defense of the people who are putting out the videos.

I'm willing to speak up about it. I don't want to gatekeep folk from entering the race. But state your credentials accurately.

Pete has been doing stuff for a while. I remember some of his older videos. But the key to the video's I posted here are that he's not presenting the information in some fashion that is bad. He's giving information, showing you what it does and providing context.

The issue we get with some of the people who probably shouldn't be making content is that they don't have the understanding and experience to do what Pete here is doing. Explaining all the things properly. They are pretending to be experts to garner views, while they are not.

It really just makes me want to stop bothering with all of it all together, discussing things in here, worrying about any online coaching anything. Just keep giving my in person lessons and stop bothering with internet folk.

And.. Maybe I am unintentionally gate keeping, but some folk I've talked to and listened to them try and argue their points from a place of no experience, and they are going to tell others they are wrong ,but turn around and make expert level video's. its just.. I'm over it I guess.

I did, however, get a bit clickbaity with this post to spur discussion. Because this is a hot topic right now with the wrist flip stuff and nose angle. I've been pounding nose angle in throwing for a while now, I've been pounding grip even more recently and other things. And, the even more annoying part is seeing content come out on it. And.. It's annoying, cause they are telling half or less than half of the information for the full picture.

But it yields results and clicks and selling crap. It doesn't benefit our community. So then I get stuck in conversations with students or other people about trying to perform these "tricks" like I did last night at my league where a power thrower was trying to figure out the key turn thing.
So I explained the other concepts that nobody else is talking about, even pete, and he was like "oh dang, that's a lot."

Maybe it's just me being grumpy cause people are half assing stuff and were all left to clean up the pieces while our voice isn't really considered whatsoever.

You're grumpy because you care. It's not a bad thing but it would probably make it easier for you to just have a mental category to file the click bait youtubers into.

You don't need to compete with them, but you could and it would require frequent posting AND some click bait.

I could talk a lot of shit about a lot of coaches and I do with sidewinder frequently but at the end of the day I'm not a coach and I just throw for fun or occasionally to win someone's lunch money.

I get how it could be stressful in your situation but there actually is an opportunity right now with the saturated online coach sphere. You could be the official grumpy guy who refutes so much of the click bait bullshit and make that your niche.

 

[Brychanus]

You're grumpy because you care. It's not a bad thing but it would probably make it easier for you to just have a mental category to file the click bait youtubers into.

You don't need to compete with them, but you could and it would require frequent posting AND some click bait.

I could talk a lot otshit about a lot of coaches and I do with sidewinder frequently but at the end of the day I'm not a coach and I just throw for fun or occasionally to win someone's lunch money.

I get how it could be stressful in your situation but there actually is an opportunity right now with the saturated online coach sphere. You could be the official grumpy guy who refutes so much of the click bait bullshit and make that your niche.

So you're saying...

Turn into the skid.

Drive toward your goals.

Lean into it, so to speak.

Obligatory Feldberg form concept photo.


Sorry, I'm aware how lame that was. Not about the lean though, I love Feldy's form.

 

[koiyote]

I think the big issue with this new turn the key thing is that it's being presented as a fix, not necessarily part of the total picture.

For someone who likes to say they care about accuracy of information you sure do use a lot of straw men…

"Flip It... The Best Cue for THROWING NOSE DOWN in Disc Golf IMO"


Literally in the title (as well as in the video) they say it is a "cue." So how is it being presented exactly? Hmmmm. Perhaps as a cue.

So now were going to have peopl,e trying to flip discs over like that and throwing annies into the turf and going "i dont get it."

People throwing anhyzers into the ground are not doing so because they turned the key; they are doing so because they over rotated into the hit and their arm is coming out closer to 12 o'clock as opposed to earlier. With a closed shoulder (i.e. GG) you can turn the key for nose down.



Here's GG introducing all that Off Axis Torque with his key turn. /s

There are many others that do this same motion that obviously don't have a problem with OAT. To name a few: Proctor, Eagle, AB, and Ricky.

Are you going to tell those guys to stop supinating their forearms?

 

[koiyote]

It's not about what works and what actually yields results. It's about clicks and selling crap.

Bold claim with no proof to back it up.

 

[Nick Carroll]

A someone with bad form, but who's worked on fixing nose angle, I found that a mix of pouring the coffee and turning the key helped me. But what made these work for me was doing each cue only to the point where my wrist keeps the disc more on-plane. The goal is to never do either cue too much, or I just create more wobble through overcorrection.

Neither are motions that are changed during the swing. There's no "flipping" the disc, or "pouring" when I'm trying to throw. I'm just putting the disc in a position in my hand that keeps the disc more on-plane during the swing. As Sheep says, it's more of a grip change, and you want to hold the disc properly - not take some sort of affirmative action in the middle of the throw.

That said, I still have form issues where there's excessive wobble, and these cues only soften the nose up error for me, and don't eliminate it. I'm at the point where I can get more nose-flat than nose-down, but the outstanding form issues are much more significant than the nose angle problems. I think people get too caught up in that, when that's something you fix more down the line, once you've fixed bigger issues.

The reality for me is: minimizing nose-up angle did little to fix my throws. I think people should chase that if they have other problems solved, as a better use of their time.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

The first time I tried this after the vid dropped I was able to get -6 degrees nose down at 85% of my max speed (tech disc) after just a few attempts. Even more nose down when throwing slower. Like the vid says, definitely harder to time as you get closer to max speed.

I don't even bother with pouring the coffee anymore b/c when testing it with tech disc it seemed to do almost nothing for me despite it being what I've always done and have muscle memory for. And if I just start a bit pronated and let a natural key turn happen, I end up nose neutral without thinking about it. However, this may be because my wrist has muscle memory to return to what I used to do which was to maintain a decent amount of supination through the full sequence.

The other thing that worked was exaggerating a reverse swoop, I got to -6 nose similarly within a few tries of that, but it feels like a bigger disruption to the overall form when I tried that and makes me doubt my angle control more, especially launch angle.

As for as what pros use it, I think from the pics in the cool repository of images on here of GG it shows he does it clearly. AB tells his GF to "turn the key" in his recent video "how far do I actually throw" when she does a nose up throw, so he might use that cue himself.

 

[Nick Carroll]

The other thing that worked was exaggerating a reverse swoop...

Do you happen to have a video of this? I want to see if this sort of action can help me, since my swing has a bit of a swoop. Part of my problem is the disc starts to come up at the peak of my backswing.