Is there an alternative to the bonapane for stubby fingers for nose down?

itsRudy

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I did the bonapane early on for a short while but I had so many problems in general I quickly went with the general 4 finger power grip. Served me okay over the years.

I never really gave it much thought since then about it. Some things I have in the years attributed to power problems not making disc fly right are in hindsight nose up. I do the "pouring the coffee" for years. My reachback is pretty level (confirmed via video) for years. Through practic, my throw is, if anything, tends towards actually slightly downwards and discs typically fly no more than release height the first half of the flight -- it's actually probably a hindrance at this point.

Problem is I'd ALWAYS see the top of discs and then invariably at the end they'd hyzer out in the end pretty big. Didn't matter if they were known as straight discs (mako/buzz/etc), understable (fuse, stingray, others) or overstable.

On a hunch yesterday I switched to Bonapane grip (except thumb is holding down index against the plate, not typical other way around) as a lark. Something struck me about how much more nose down it is. The releases were atrocious at first, I tended to late release way to the right (opposite my gut instinct on premature release due to less underplate grip). However the flights were much nicer. I think it's because my fingers are pretty short and stubby and any attempt to reach under the rim with my pointer finger pulls the disc nose up.

With bonapane and a level throw, my max distance issn't any better or worse yet. However the shots that released cleanly landed way more on target, than with my typical grip. The flights were also just nicer, level, and straight on. I also got 50 more feet on a big downhill than the previous day. That just never happens.

THEN I did a second round right after, on a course I played at least thousand rounds, quite literally. And I was already shooting better than the old grip ever did. Bonapane feels so wrong but the results speak. On several holes, I noticeably sailed past baskets or certain landmarks by 25 feet, which never happened before. Not more max distance per se, but more usable distance. Or I can go after certain lines because there isn't this huge fade at the end.

And I'm doing it on approach shots and putts, as well, with positive results. For putts, it's simply pointer finger above the plate. A lot less hyzering out. But it feels so weird.

My only problem with this, other than the wrongness, is that it feels like the disc is coming out a bit weaker out of hand. Less power, less spin. But I'm getting results despite that. What can I do? Grip strengthen my 3 other fingers and play this way? Some other strategy? Even at a static stance, my most downward "pouring the coffee" doesn't quite get the disc nosedown if I try to bring my index finger under the rim.
 
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I've not understood the obsession with this grip, it seems more like a youtube views gimmick more than anything constructive.

The best bet you can have is just moving the disc around in your palm and the angle you're holding it at and see what the disc does.

This ridged structure we have taught for years now that you have to hold the disc like this and pour the tea kettle. I think its BS. And I aim to prove it wrong here soon when I can get someone to run the effing high speed camera for me. cause.. I cannot be in 2 places at once.
 
I've not understood the obsession with this grip, it seems more like a youtube views gimmick more than anything constructive.

The best bet you can have is just moving the disc around in your palm and the angle you're holding it at and see what the disc does.

This ridged structure we have taught for years now that you have to hold the disc like this and pour the tea kettle. I think its BS. And I aim to prove it wrong here soon when I can get someone to run the effing high speed camera for me. cause.. I cannot be in 2 places at once.
What kind of camera? There's many different types of triggers on the market and diy is always an option. You could go optical with beam break or mechanical with a delay timer.
 
Two finger grip. Basically the power grip but remove your pinky/ring fingers. I weened myself off of it because I do personally feel like a full power grip is better for max distance, but I have small hands and this helped me a lot with learning how to throw nose-down.
 
I've not understood the obsession with this grip, it seems more like a youtube views gimmick more than anything constructive.

Just as a note, I stumbled upon this grip on my own years ago after learning about nose down in general and experimenting, which is why my finger placement is a bit different from the norm. I have definitely seen Youtube vids on it in the meantime, but it's mostly Dave Dunnipace explaining the history or the Overthrow Disc Golf shitting on it.
 
Two finger grip. Basically the power grip but remove your pinky/ring fingers. I weened myself off of it because I do personally feel like a full power grip is better for max distance, but I have small hands and this helped me a lot with learning how to throw nose-down.
I've experimented with the Bonopane grip, the Dion Arlyn deep thumb grip, as well as 2-, 3-, and 4-finger power grips. I found Bonopane very useful in terms of seeing/feeling the difference in a true nose-down flight, but it is a weird and sloppy grip regardless of the index position, and I think unsustainable for long-term use. I'm sure no pro uses it (?).

In general, I use a fan grip (the Michael Johanssen grip; he has a good Youtube video demoing it). I use it for just about everything between 120' and 340'. For longer drives, I've settled on the 3-finger power grip, which I find a good balance between the "tightness" of the full power grip and the improved nose-down of the 2-finger.

For the OP: are you 100% sure the issue is your grip, and not your weight shift and/or spine at the point of release? Don't get me wrong, I think a good grip is important, but the kinds of flights you're describing, seem, from personal experience, more like issues not getting all your weight on your plant foot. I just wonder if maybe you're compensating for being caught in between and getting a wicked air bounce that stalls everything.
 
I've experimented with the Bonopane grip, the Dion Arlyn deep thumb grip, as well as 2-, 3-, and 4-finger power grips. I found Bonopane very useful in terms of seeing/feeling the difference in a true nose-down flight, but it is a weird and sloppy grip regardless of the index position, and I think unsustainable for long-term use. I'm sure no pro uses it (?).

Agreed after some weeks experiment.

For the OP: are you 100% sure the issue is your grip, and not your weight shift and/or spine at the point of release? Don't get me wrong, I think a good grip is important, but the kinds of flights you're describing, seem, from personal experience, more like issues not getting all your weight on your plant foot. I just wonder if maybe you're compensating for being caught in between and getting a wicked air bounce that stalls everything.

I'm not sure of anything in DG form, but I've moved back to powergrip and instead focusing on placing my feet in a more athletic position - I'm a natural waddler with duck feet. I'm concentrating on getting my toes pointed more towards the other foot on release, standstill approach and putting and feel it's giving most of the Bonapane type nose down benefits for all three situations -- must be a spine alignment thing on release.
 
Agreed after some weeks experiment.



I'm not sure of anything in DG form, but I've moved back to powergrip and instead focusing on placing my feet in a more athletic position - I'm a natural waddler with duck feet. I'm concentrating on getting my toes pointed more towards the other foot on release, standstill approach and putting and feel it's giving most of the Bonapane type nose down benefits for all three situations -- must be a spine alignment thing on release.
I experimented with several different power grips, and they seem to make little to no difference for me. However, I know for sure that I often get nose up, terrible throws if I mess up my footwork, and end up somewhat off balance. Also, if I step too far on my final step, that gets me throwing into the ground.
 
I tried it for awhile, many years ago after I ran into Steve from Edmonton haha (happens every few years). He was throwing well and I saw the goofy grip and etc...

I think that (besides the nose down benefit) it helps people grip the disc better. You don't have much choice haha. That helped me for awhile, I was instantly transferring more power and throwing further because my previous grip was too loose and I have perpetual nose up problems.

It did hurt accuracy, so I stopped. Last night I was practicing and I realized I let my grip get sloppy again, went to a firmer pinch on the birdie grip and put on 30ft.
 
I had never heard of the Bonapane grip until now, and just watched a video with the founder of it, and nope. Holley Finley posted a putting video on this site about 3 years ago pinching hard on the disc with pointer finger and thumb and mentioned about doing the same with full throws. Having only played about a year at the time, took her advice and stuck with it ever since with a power grip at that time. I still have to remind myself to pinch it hard.

However, those high school football hand injuries are catching up to me at age 60, and there are times when my pinky (bent inward) and ring finger (surgery) are throbbing especially when it's cold, a past dislocation of my thumb normally behaves, but can ache at times. So, I've learned other grips, and I like to grip check putters and mid's at PIAS, only twice have I ordered putters blind both Plasma's because I've grown comfortable with the plastic. Just twice with mid's with the Plasma and an Eclipse for the same reason. My grip stays constant when its warm, when it gets cold, I have to check myself on what grip I'll be throwing with that picked disc, to match the discomfort I'm feeling.

Power grip pretty much with putters and mid's only. Three finger grip started using almost 3 years ago when discomfort started setting in mostly with the pinky, at the time 7 thru 12 speed. This past June started using the 2-finger and positioning deep in the palm, pinching harder, the ring finger started giving more discomfort, 6-speed thru 14-speed. Sometimes I can go back to a three-finger, just depends on comfort. More distance with three finger, more accurate with two finger, but I've noticed two finger is slowly catching up on distance.

It's the start of our wind season so I'm checking out three 12-speeds for headwind after losing last years. Last week warm weather, hand feels good, about 20 mph headwind one of them giving me some of the longest distances ever on the practice field, and the second one right behind it 2-finger. This week a 35–40-degree temperature drop, those two fingers throbbing bad, two-finger grip same wind speed, a little more than 2/3rds of last week's distance. On the course next day colder, not so much pain about 3/4 distance. When the wind increases speed next month, I don't think that 2-finger will hold up well holding onto the disc, I'll have to suck it up with the 3-finger.

In summary, when it comes to grip at this time, it's like shuffling cards depending on pain, temperature, and disc.
 
I'll just throw this out as a possibility to see if this might be in play: Check the height of your hand and disc at release. I've fallen into a pattern where I not only swoop a little bit during the swing, but when the disc comes out of my hand, it turns out my hand and disc are pointing up a bit. Now, I've spent some time working on this, but from time to time my body's muscle memory comes back into play and the "angle of attack" is slightly upwards, and there can be "nose up disc angle" on top of that. This leads to "skying" the discs too high, they stall, and fall short of the intended distance. Best to check this with a side view and slo-mo. It does sound like you have the angle of attack right, just not the nose angle. But I figured I'd throw this out, as this seems to be somewhat common.
 

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You don't need to overcompensate your grip because you're throwing nose up, you need to improve your overall form.

When I started throwing from a balanced position, my discs were going straight into the ground because I was so used to compensating for bad form. Now I rarely think about it, but my wrist is definitely in a "pouring" position. Just not in a forced or stressed way.
 
You don't need to overcompensate your grip because you're throwing nose up, you need to improve your overall form.

When I started throwing from a balanced position, my discs were going straight into the ground because I was so used to compensating for bad form. Now I rarely think about it, but my wrist is definitely in a "pouring" position. Just not in a forced or stressed way.
On the chance you're addressing me, I just want to let you know that I am currently working with a form coach. Recently I've become concerned that I'm causing some nose up angle when I throw due to what my wrist/hand appears to be doing, but I can't tell yet. 🙂
 
On the chance you're addressing me, I just want to let you know that I am currently working with a form coach. Recently I've become concerned that I'm causing some nose up angle when I throw due to what my wrist/hand appears to be doing, but I can't tell yet. 🙂
I wasn't specifically, but based on that shot I would say the wrist isn't where I would focus. Do you have video?
 
found some.

your backswing peaks while your weight is entirely on your back foot:
Screenshot 2023-11-15 at 3.26.59 PM.png

you're tipped back and waiting for the front leg to fall as opposed to turning back inside the x-step.
 
found some.

your backswing peaks while your weight is entirely on your back foot:
View attachment 327416

you're tipped back and waiting for the front leg to fall as opposed to turning back inside the x-step.
Yeah my form coach and I have basically done (for lack of a better term) an autopsy on my form and there's 1) a lot of problems, and 2) they're interconnected. And at this point we're taking more of a "build from scratch" approach, as opposed to the "fix a few things" approach we started with.

That's probably for the better because I'm at a point where I've made my body do all sort of incorrect things - and all those are at my disposal at any time - whether or not I want them. So what happens is, I think I'm fixing one thing, and 3 other things break in the process. I turn my attention to 1 of those things, and other things break.

Only reason I'm looking at my wrist at the moment is more for informational purposes right now. I get the feeling that's doing something in error, too. We'll see. I'm only just seeing this as a problem now, but it's currently not my primary concern. 🙂
 
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