Pinching the disc and snapping the wrist

[Sheep]

A hand/release in slow-mo on a drive with good mechanics.

Yeah, I "thought" I had good mechanics till I looked at the slow motion.
So, the overall idea was that we are teaching grip poorly/wrong. So I tried a bunch of different standard grips on the slow motion. So, I got that footage, and as stated, it really just gave me more questions than answers, which is why I didn't really want to make an outright video until I had more answers to those questions.
So, now I have more answers, I need to shoot more slow motion video before I can post anything, because while I've tested my results on others, I'm still waiting on a few other people to get back to me on that data and changes.

So, yeah, I don't have any "good" mechanics in the video, cause what looks to be good turns out horrible. It was fairly interesting as well, Because the disc starts out of the hand correct, then locks in nose up because of the OAT. Which I found even more fascinating.

What's this proprietary knowledge you are hoarding?! If it's good... let them steal it! Are you saving it to monetize it or something?

I'm not hoarding things, but in the age of how things work with content. People are not interested in working together, giving credit or anything of the sorts. They are interested in subscribers and views for their money.
I'm interested in collaborating, learning and giving credit where credit is due.

So, having talked to a few people privately now about some things and video's being published on them. Or things that have changed in the coaching community as a whole because of my efforts, but... If I say something about it, everyone is like "Nah, I was doing that all along"
Bullfucking shit you were. I pushed that.

It's a bit of selfishness to a sense, but also annoying for someone to take your information and make money off it without giving you credit or trying to talk to you about it in the video.

 

[timothy42b]

You (plural) have succeeded in totally confusing me regarding grip (and therefore disc pivot and rip).

In the recent flat thumb thread, several persons mention they backhand grip hard enough their thumbs make permanent indents on the disc. Clearly they are holding the flight plate. (as opposed to someone who focuses on the rim. can do both of course.) On forehand Ryan Sheldon uses a tight grip but only at one point. Forehand grip videos seem confused on whether they grip the flight plate with friction or the rim with pressure. (serve the pizza vs throw like a baseball)

Seeming to agree with that, there is a Robbie C video where his coach has him grip the disc as hard as he possibly can as a teaching drill. It still rips out.

Halfway to that position, here is the Johansen video on the fan grip, where he does not hook the index finger against the rim, but he does put in pressure on the flight plate between thumb and index finger to bend it:



Now for a little contrast here is Jaani:


This backhand grip doesn't even need the thumb, don't worry, your hand will tighten at the right moment by itself.

And now his take on a forehand grip that deliberately allows a loose pivot. I include this one because I don't think you can separate grip from pivot/release. Also, he says the principle of this throw can apply to backhand.

 

[drk_evns]

Yeah, I "thought" I had good mechanics till I looked at the slow motion.

Bummer.

I'd still be interested to see what a bad release looks like—just need to get a good one too.

Or things that have changed in the coaching community as a whole because of my efforts,

Like?

 

[Sheep]

You (plural) have succeeded in totally confusing me regarding grip (and therefore disc pivot and rip).

In the recent flat thumb thread, several persons mention they backhand grip hard enough their thumbs make permanent indents on the disc. Clearly they are holding the flight plate. (as opposed to someone who focuses on the rim. can do both of course.) On forehand Ryan Sheldon uses a tight grip but only at one point. Forehand grip videos seem confused on whether they grip the flight plate with friction or the rim with pressure. (serve the pizza vs throw like a baseball)

Seeming to agree with that, there is a Robbie C video where his coach has him grip the disc as hard as he possibly can as a teaching drill. It still rips out.

Halfway to that position, here is the Johansen video on the fan grip, where he does not hook the index finger against the rim, but he does put in pressure on the flight plate between thumb and index finger to bend it:



Now for a little contrast here is Jaani:


This backhand grip doesn't even need the thumb, don't worry, your hand will tighten at the right moment by itself.

And now his take on a forehand grip that deliberately allows a loose pivot. I include this one because I don't think you can separate grip from pivot/release. Also, he says the principle of this throw can apply to backhand.

It's a lot, and I think the subject deserves a better deep dive.

I've actually been talking this over with Jaani privately. Cause we discuss things quite often. At least he wants to do stuff together somewhat and talk. It's great working with him. I wish we could do video's together, it would be hilarious.

It's just really a lack of study and a lot of just "feel" to what goes on. But the biggest observation is that pro's all teach gripping differently, they explain it poorly and we don't really go into much on it other than "grip the disc" and... That just became an unsettling thing for me.

The problem I'm struggling with now is getting some of this stuff concrete in on my swing.

But the other video I did get the footage I wanted for, this plays into the grip video. So I can at least make that one. I probaly should to today, its raining out, i'm just... lazy sometimes.

 

[Sheep]

Bummer.

I'd still be interested to see what a bad release looks like—just need to get a good one too.



Like?

Some of the language stuff I've been pushing for 6 years.
I remember making a comment to a content creator about how I was happy to hear them adopting my language que's and they fired back at me that they had been doing it since before they knew me.
Like.. you have a history of video's saying the opposite... but ya know, whatever.

Stuff like that I'm not very caring on, and its not necessarily "my" product people are trampling on. But it's nice to see people pick it up and then it carry on.

I'm not concerned with people producing better content because of language.

It's a pet peeve thing. I've dealt with it through work for years, and a little bit here in the disc golf area/youtube.
Just remember, I do more than disc golf content. Just it's not a channel I have/am going to share in here.

 

[Sheep]

A hand/release in slow-mo on a drive with good mechanics.



What's this proprietary knowledge you are hoarding?! If it's good... let them steal it! Are you saving it to monetize it or something?

Here you go, even though its a tease.

That's 2 entirely different grips while throwing as well, but the OAT is just ugh.

Some of it has to do with wrist deflection while the wrist pops, with the relationship to the hand angle and the disc in the hand.

 

[Sewer bill]

Don't chase perfect release or try to tune it out. I have thrown with some of the best distance drivers and ALL of them have some audible flutter hidden in the woosh of the disc being released out of the hand on high power drives. The oat applied to the disc dampens quickly and is inevitable. Due to everyone having different lever lengths some will have more exaggerated oat in what looks like near perfect form.

 

[drk_evns]

Some of the language stuff I've been pushing for 6 years.
I remember making a comment to a content creator about how I was happy to hear them adopting my language que's and they fired back at me that they had been doing it since before they knew me.
Like.. you have a history of video's saying the opposite... but ya know, whatever.

Stuff like that I'm not very caring on, and its not necessarily "my" product people are trampling on. But it's nice to see people pick it up and then it carry on.

I'm not concerned with people producing better content because of language.

It's a pet peeve thing. I've dealt with it through work for years, and a little bit here in the disc golf area/youtube.
Just remember, I do more than disc golf content. Just it's not a channel I have/am going to share in here.

Got any examples of things you've invented that have been "stolen" form you and "changed the community as a whole because of your efforts?"

Here you go, even though its a tease.

That's 2 entirely different grips while throwing as well, but the OAT is just ugh.

Some of it has to do with wrist deflection while the wrist pops, with the relationship to the hand angle and the disc in the hand.

Thanks for sharing. I can definitely see it slipping out from the power pocket to the hit—I'm assuming there is more of a pivot on a good throw.

 

[Sheep]

Don't chase perfect release or try to tune it out. I have thrown with some of the best distance drivers and ALL of them have some audible flutter hidden in the woosh of the disc being released out of the hand on high power drives. The oat applied to the disc dampens quickly and is inevitable. Due to everyone having different lever lengths some will have more exaggerated oat in what looks like near perfect form.

OAT is one of the largest killers. the goal of good form is to reduce oat to the smallest amount possible.

So in the case of what I was seeing in some of this high speed is I had enough OAT for the disc to appear to come out nose down, then pop up and stabalize nose up.

less oat = better flight. You're better off slowing down and not throwing as hard and getting less OAT, you'll get the same distance because the disc is not trying to correct itself in an under stable turbulent flight. All the time it takes to stable up is wasted momentum in the flight.

This is why so many peoples forehands go nowhere, it wobbles forever and goes nowhere. the disc is getting to many forces going in to many directions except the direction you're trying to push it in.

I don't think its possible to eliminate it completely, but mitigating as much as possible will achieve the best control.

 

[Sheep]

Thanks for sharing. I can definitely see it slipping out from the power pocket to the hit—I'm assuming there is more of a pivot on a good throw.

Unfortunately with the lens on the camera I can only pick up so much, I would have liked to get more of "me" in the shot, but the lens is to long and I had no more room to move the camera back further.

Trying to find a shorter lens for it. It's just nice to have access to this equipment for these purposes.

I was going to take it to MCO this year and film pro players throwing, but DGPT wanted to be a bit of asses about me not having a media pass, thus not allowing me to Film despite being a staff member running the event.

So this year, I'll ask Derrick to let me use one of his media passes. And then when his crew comes through on their card, I'll make sure he has what data I can give him. Unfortunately the Kronos only works so fast. So I don't know if I can get slow motion on all 4 drives with the save times. Limitations. yay. But, this is at around 3000 to 3200 fps. And watching the footage, that's about as low as you really wanna go for any significant details.

I guess I'll go work on this other video to post it up. A bunch of things are broken from an update on the other thing I'm working on, so I cannot do that work today. and the weather is crap, so I cannot do anything outside I need to do.

 

[drk_evns]

say less.

 

[Kennets]

Thought I read somewhere, that eagle has a decent amount of wobble out of his hand on his backhand?

FH wobble is a real killer though (FH dominant player) and it feels like a clean release will get me close to a 100 feet further.

I don't know shit about anything, so it's an interesting topic.

 

[timothy42b]

Don't chase perfect release or try to tune it out. I have thrown with some of the best distance drivers and ALL of them have some audible flutter hidden in the woosh of the disc being released out of the hand on high power drives.

A golf ball distorts pretty massively on impact, see image, and wobbles before stabilizing. Any chance a disc is being stretched enough in a high speed throw to do something similar?

 

[sidewinder22]

Looking at some of the tech disc data...
Wiggins has the highest speed and one of the highest wobble.
GG has one the highest spin RPM and one of the lowest wobble.

 

[Sewer bill]

A golf ball distorts pretty massively on impact, see image, and wobbles before stabilizing. Any chance a disc is being stretched enough in a high speed throw to do something similar?

View attachment 327928

Absolutely but on a much smaller scale than the regular anatomically induced oat. I'm sure there's also some drastic differences from different disc types and plastic types. I bet old school esp flx plastic has a visible distortion harmonic traveling around the rim of the disc before it can even make 1 revolution.

That would actually be really frigging awesome to see on high speed footage.

 

[sidewinder22]

A golf ball distorts pretty massively on impact, see image, and wobbles before stabilizing. Any chance a disc is being stretched enough in a high speed throw to do something similar?

View attachment 327928

I try to warp the disc sideways.

 

[Sheep]

A golf ball distorts pretty massively on impact, see image, and wobbles before stabilizing. Any chance a disc is being stretched enough in a high speed throw to do something similar?

View attachment 327928

You can see them warp in the slow motion I posted.

 

[Sheep]

I try to warp the disc sideways.

It's just a jump to the left.... And then a step to the right?

 

[Sheep]

Absolutely but on a much smaller scale than the regular anatomically induced oat.

The actual OAT on a golf ball isn't quite the same. We got a giant flying wing that relies on a wing shape to fly. warbles in the flight are far different than a little bit of shake in the ball.

Does it affect the balls?
Yes. But companies are doing everything they can to balance balls as best as possible, even though some of the most expensive balls are a bit off. Which is why pro's use the spinner line maker things to set their putting balls up.

 

[sidewinder22]

It's just a jump to the left.... And then a step to the right?

I'm not understanding this?