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Disc Pivot and the Snap
- Thread starter Sard0nyx
- Start date
seedlings
* Ace Member *
As I have read, the disc will release with a high power shot. I'm not yet a year into form, so I'm not there. Close enough to wow card mates sometimes, but a lot of timing left to work out.
Is the close shoulder drill a good drill for developing the snap? I've watched the video many times and it seems the form changes depending on the velocity. Slower and the shoulder seems to rotate more and there is more of a follow through. Fast with power it seems to stop the arm. Which is correct?
To expand, should the elbow be locked at 90deg from the chest and the motion is all elbow then wrist with a stop by locking the elbow/forearm to enable the wrist to break forward?
Are there better drills for creating snap? I feel like I can do it but I'm not sure if I'm doing a full snap. Does the grip used matter? I read that 2 finger can give a better sensation of the snap.
Thanks!
To expand, should the elbow be locked at 90deg from the chest and the motion is all elbow then wrist with a stop by locking the elbow/forearm to enable the wrist to break forward?
Are there better drills for creating snap? I feel like I can do it but I'm not sure if I'm doing a full snap. Does the grip used matter? I read that 2 finger can give a better sensation of the snap.
Thanks!
seedlings
* Ace Member *
Some of these sensations are just starting to click for me. The #1 thing seems to be form. Moment of backswing timed with lead foot plant, hip shift brings disc into pocket, arm pushes disc out of the pocket. *IF* form is correct *THEN* keep the wrist uncurled (still outside of disc), and grip very hard at the moment the disc rips out. Otherwise the disc slips out before it whips out. Think of fighter pilot training, spinning at high G forces, they have to squeeze their leg muscles ridiculously tight to keep the blood from rushing out of their brain and passing out. Squeeze to rip.
For a drill, grip the disc with a rigid, straight wrist. Fling it violently out of the pocket in a throwing motion to get the disc to 'bounce' off your tendons/muscles and back into place.
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seedlings
* Ace Member *
SW22 or HUB or anyone else can comment if these old drills referenced at archived DGR are still recommended:
Example:
Example:
Should I keep the elbow locked at 90degree from chest? Should I be extending my elbow?Should this be done in standstill? Is it possible to get the bounce from a standstill?
I ask because it seems to be to get a 'violent' out of the pocket throwing motion would require at least at 1 step.
Thanks!
I would like to know if these are still recommended too. Again, it seems these drills are done by locking the elbow (I could be wrong). Is it correct to lock the elbow when throwing a real throw? When I do that it seems to stop my follow through.
Elbow really isn't going to be at 90 degrees at any point, nor will it be locked at any point. It keeps tension between the disc and the body.
Think of the arm during the throw like a leg during a kick. The sensation is using the same muscles as trying to "extend" the leg, but because of momentum and bodily positioning the muscles are propelling the ball targetward vs straight up or down. So the triceps during the throw are "extending" but are really just keeping tension between the disc and the body and launching it once the body re-centers once it's braced up on the front leg.
That's what's wrong with the "inward pull" theory. The biceps are not activated at all during targetward acceleration or once you're on the front leg. It's simply the weight of the disc causing the triceps to contract as they're pushing the disc away from the body, creating the tendon bounce.
Tendon bounce is exactly the same as when you jump, or kick a ball. When you jump with a running start you don't actively squat, you're braced against the ground and pushing up as your body weight compresses your leg muscles, creating the tendon bounce like a piston in an engine.
Source: I'm a mechanical engineer, kicked the football in high school and also was a state placing long jumper, so those ideas transfer across the sports pretty seamlessly to my mind. Hope they make sense to you as well.
Think of the arm during the throw like a leg during a kick. The sensation is using the same muscles as trying to "extend" the leg, but because of momentum and bodily positioning the muscles are propelling the ball targetward vs straight up or down. So the triceps during the throw are "extending" but are really just keeping tension between the disc and the body and launching it once the body re-centers once it's braced up on the front leg.
That's what's wrong with the "inward pull" theory. The biceps are not activated at all during targetward acceleration or once you're on the front leg. It's simply the weight of the disc causing the triceps to contract as they're pushing the disc away from the body, creating the tendon bounce.
Tendon bounce is exactly the same as when you jump, or kick a ball. When you jump with a running start you don't actively squat, you're braced against the ground and pushing up as your body weight compresses your leg muscles, creating the tendon bounce like a piston in an engine.
Source: I'm a mechanical engineer, kicked the football in high school and also was a state placing long jumper, so those ideas transfer across the sports pretty seamlessly to my mind. Hope they make sense to you as well.
I think my concept of lock is initiating the tension. Perhaps I'm misusing the term.
So the tricep is relaxed during the reach back/out and as the disc reaches the pec the tricep is contracted causing extension. As the arm is about to be fully extended is there supposed to be bicep contraction, propelling the wrist and disc forward? Isn't the tricep extension followed by bicep contraction what generates the elbow/forearm 'lock' or 'tension' which then allows the wrist to break forward ejecting the disc?
This makes sense to me, but see above if see above.
Thanks!
Of course. I was always under the impression that lock means locking out the joint, so there was a bit of misunderstanding there I think.
The biceps really aren't activated at any point during the throw. Perhaps in the backswing depending on style, but definitely not once the brace leg is planted. The disc isn't pulled towards the body, its momentum carries it across the chest while the body recenters on the brace, then launches the disc once your body is planted and firmly against the ground. Only place I'd say biceps are activated is during follow through/deceleration. As you plant, Your reach back is at its peak as you've shifted "from behind" onto your front leg. The triceps keep the tension throughout the throw and launch once you're posted up on the front leg. Biceps aren't used in acceleration of the disc at all, only during the deceleration of your arm post-release.
Thanks, so there is no contraction at the hit point of muscles to generate what I would call a second brace of the arm? The first being the plant foot. I dont do that when throwing but it seemed necessary when trying to throw the closed shoulder drill with any power and to generate more spin.
I've seen many references to stopping the elbow. Is This stopping of the elbow not supposed to happen?
It may be that the gripping really hard at the hit is what causes the elbow lock as presumably all of the major muscles in the arm are engaged.
I've seen many references to stopping the elbow. Is This stopping of the elbow not supposed to happen?
It may be that the gripping really hard at the hit is what causes the elbow lock as presumably all of the major muscles in the arm are engaged.
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Intentional stopping of the elbow is bunk. The elbow in slow motion might look like it's stopping but it's because the triceps and lesser so the forearm muscles are applying a targetward force, resulting in the elbow appearing like it's stopping/slowing down. But to intentionally stop the elbow from a physics perspective makes no sense and would hinder the power and momentum transferred from the body to the disc.
Not sure about the second brace but if you'd wanna elaborate a bit maybe I could follow what you're referring to.
Well, when the triceps and forearm muscles (and I believe also the biceps) tense up during the grip this essentially acts like a brace with respect to the wrist. The arm goes from an uncoiling motion to a very taught 'brace' at the point of hit. Yes, it's just another lever but it seems to be the part of the whip where you would stop/brace the handle of the whip. I'm trying to conceptualize what is happening so that I can make sure I'm not doing something wrong.
Thanks for all of your responses!
Think of it not as a "this muscle does this, then this muscle does this, then..." but more along the lines of the entire body moving as one unit from the ground up. Once the brace is grounded acceleration begins, tension is between the disc through the arm, body and down to the brace - at no point does the arm go slack, but rather it accelerates through and into impact/"the hit"/smash/etc
It's tricky when describing the power pocket and the hit, because people put it on this pedestal as if it's the end all be all, but it's actually a fluid acceleration from the ground, through the body and into the disc. Just like a kick during football or soccer - just using your arm as the swing instead of the opposite leg. People a lot of times think it's a very complex maneuver but in reality you've already done many, if not all, of the moves in the throw, you just didn't know it yet.
It's tricky when describing the power pocket and the hit, because people put it on this pedestal as if it's the end all be all, but it's actually a fluid acceleration from the ground, through the body and into the disc. Just like a kick during football or soccer - just using your arm as the swing instead of the opposite leg. People a lot of times think it's a very complex maneuver but in reality you've already done many, if not all, of the moves in the throw, you just didn't know it yet.
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The drills mentioned are still recommended.
I try to keep the elbow further forward than 90 degrees, like 120-135. It will compress and bounce during the swing.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133733
Swing the shoulder which swings the arm/disc centrifugally.
One Leg Drill IMO is the ultimate drill:
I think the 120degree concept is helpful. I've seen videos (of pros) 'teaching' what is almost a 180degree extreme elbow punch that just doesn't happen in reality.
The only problem I have with the one leg drill is that it seems to place too much weight over the right knee or even past it. I'm recovering from knee pain, that most likely happened from too much field work and rotating on my toe while also having my weight too forward rather than centered over my spine. That's why I think the one step drill may be better (for me) but I'll try both later tonight. Thanks SW!
The only problem I have with the one leg drill is that it seems to place too much weight over the right knee or even past it. I'm recovering from knee pain, that most likely happened from too much field work and rotating on my toe while also having my weight too forward rather than centered over my spine. That's why I think the one step drill may be better (for me) but I'll try both later tonight. Thanks SW!
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One Leg Drill should put less pressure and torque on the knee and make it easier to pivot, since your CoG and gravity are all inline just like when you are standing and you are not bringing in as much momentum.
A one-step adds in more moving parts and variables and more momentum and torque with your CoG and gravity not inline with your leg being angled into dynamic balance to the momentum.
drk_evns
Eagle Member
This.
I cringe every time I hear Bradley say "keep the shoulder at 90 degrees always" because that tends to lead to bad rounding. If you're keeping it wide, it compresses to 90 degrees at the hit.
"feel is not real"
Just like the "375ft Roc" thread, it feels almost like your arm is shot straight out, but that doesn't happen in reality. Compressing against it amplifies the whip, just like in the wrist.
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Should be widening thru the hit like GG/Wiggins.
oldmandiscer
Banned
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I believe there could be a small deceleration of the elbow and shoulders which should be one piece. Not a stop but a deceleration allows the disc to be thrown faster/arm to be extended at a quicker rate.
If you look at Ezra and McBeths swim move I feel like this is how they are decelerating the shoulders/elbow slightly right before the hit point. Their left arm/hand moves backwards slightly against the forward rotation.
It's likely something they developed naturally from throwing power shots which gives them just a bit more pop. My theory anyways.
