I feel the heavy disc; thank you everyone.

[YoYoNinjaBoy]

I've struggled with this too especially as easy power increases and it gets easier to blow by stuff unintentionally

1. Downtempo form (e.g. Tattar)
2. Downscale form (e.g. Lizotte)
3. Remove parts of form/modify emphasis on parts of chain & posture. Lots of options to discuss there
4. Some mix of 1-3
5. Let the discs do the work.

My current guess is that I will now see significant input to output changes based on my formwork and generating momentum horizontally and vertically. Of which I've worked on a lot in the past but I blew way past it all with my arm.

 

[RowingBoats]

I've struggled with this too especially as easy power increases and it gets easier to blow by stuff unintentionally

1. Downtempo form (e.g. Tattar)
2. Downscale form (e.g. Lizotte)
3. Remove parts of form/modify emphasis on parts of chain & posture. Lots of options to discuss there
4. Some mix of 1-3
5. Let the discs do the work.

Yep lol.

This is why I think SW22 agrees with the concept of learning to throw far, then learning to throw controlled shots. You have to keep the whip integrity in-tact, but its way, way easier to convince yourself that strong arming upshots is fine.

The absolutely painful slowness of how it feels is much stranger than throwing with power, imo.

 

[YoYoNinjaBoy]

TLDR what's the one simple trick? Play more rocket league?

The one simple trick for me I kinda knew all along. I was throwing too hard. I started throwing less hard and that was good but I was still throwing too hard. I started throwing even less hard and that was better but I was still throwing too hard. Repeat.

Just realized it's a 2 parter. To go along with that I needed to not attempt to accelerate the disc at all. AT ALL. Unsure if that will change as it does appear in slow mo's that people let the demon out eventually but I do not want to be messing with that right now and I'd advise anybody struggling to do the same. If i accelerate I can accelerate early and that breaks the chain. Maybe I am still accelerating it but that's what it feels like

 

[RowingBoats]

Just realized it's a 2 parter. To go along with that I needed to not attempt to accelerate the disc at all. AT ALL. Unsure if that will change as it does appear in slow mo's that people let the demon out eventually but I do not want to be messing with that right now and I'd advise anybody struggling to do the same. If i accelerate I can accelerate early and that breaks the chain. Maybe I am still accelerating it but that's what it feels like

Lol I know exactly what you mean in this whole thread.

I do think it still feels like I am throwing 'hard', but its not using your arm. There is a good feeling of power, and a bad one imo.

 

[Brychanus]

Just realized it's a 2 parter. To go along with that I needed to not attempt to accelerate the disc at all. AT ALL. Unsure if that will change as it does appear in slow mo's that people let the demon out eventually but I do not want to be messing with that right now and I'd advise anybody struggling to do the same. If i accelerate I can accelerate early and that breaks the chain. Maybe I am still accelerating it but that's what it feels like

Lol I know exactly what you mean in this whole thread.

I do think it still feels like I am throwing 'hard', but its not using your arm. There is a good feeling of power, and a bad one imo.

I have the suggestion that "letting the demon out" is a real phenomenon, but like RB is saying I definitely want it to be distributed across the whole body + the building on the momentum. I personally prefer to let that demon build on whatever I'm getting from momentum and "free" acceleration in each part of the chain. Consider that much of the effort in the swing can actually be a reaction to preceding events in the sequence. If you already know what I mean you might be getting it. If you don't, see if you can find it. Maximize your bang for the buck.


YYNB,

One of the silver linings of recent overuse injuries forcing me to slow waaaay down again was that I gave myself a minigame while rehabbing that you might like. I thought it was kind of silly at first and I was chomping at the bit, but it turns out to really help me in a few ways.

The "game" is to overshoot short distance targets moving as slowly as possible, and still relying on momentum and the weight shift to do most of the work. I try to downtempo my driving form as much as possible to control distances to reach short tees. Once I get to a point where I think I could go no slower, I push myself to go slower again. Lo and behold, I would eventually start overshooting the basket again. I got to a point where I figured out where I'd prefer to change discs or lines versus slow the swing down even further or modify my stance etc.

So this also taught my body and brain a lot about where distance comes from. Watching discs sail farther and farther with less and less effort is a huge intervention IMO. I started to realize just how little effort and momentum I could put into any given shot. Scores and control went up accordingly. Distance gets easier over time.

I think like RB is suggesting, the thing causing my discs to overshoot tees while moving as slow as I can is the thing you want to preserve and develop when going uptempo to intentionally get more distance. I want any stank I put on the disc to not ruin that chain of events in my throws. I also never want to introduce pure "strong-arming" as an option, because I'm always trying to improve my sequence and control. And it's really compelling to "strong-arm" as a form of distance control when you first develop "too much" of it.

At a certain point I think different bodies and players have preferences that will vary for one reason or another. But this is a way I am learning about my style and it simplifies everything.

Also worth mentioning that Seabas drills are basically a giant toolkit for throwing on uneven footing, needing to modify parts of form to the goal, etc. You can start to get pretty adept at when you swap among options and encounter the tradeoffs. I've gotten to the point where it's becoming more fun to problem solve the scrambles and I don't really think about it much after picking my line. Body takes care of itself for the most part. And if I'm feeling a little weak off the tee that day with my new driving form I can always back off to various standstill strategies or still get a lot out of throwing with less momentum.

Last thing: if the complete game is driving, upshots/scrambles, and putting, consider the value of always drawing from the same fundamental move for every task. If you have a broad and deep toolkit, the chances you get 2 or 3 of those things all to line up in a given round is higher than otherwise. Sufficient, deliberate practice raises the floor and the ceiling over time. You also can bounce back from ruts faster.

Bryant and drk, I swear I am practicing my putting this week.

 

[RowingBoats]

I have the suggestion that "letting the demon out" is a real phenomenon, but like RB is saying I definitely want it to be distributed across the whole body + the building on the momentum. I personally prefer to let that demon build on whatever I'm getting from momentum and "free" acceleration in each part of the chain. Consider that much of the effort in the swing can actually be a reaction to preceding events in the sequence. If you already know what I mean you might be getting it. If you don't, see if you can find it. Maximize your bang for the buck.


YYNB,

One of the silver linings of recent overuse injuries forcing me to slow waaaay down again was that I gave myself a minigame while rehabbing that you might like. I thought it was kind of silly at first and I was chomping at the bit, but it turns out to really help me in a few ways.

The "game" is to overshoot short distance targets moving as slowly as possible, and still relying on momentum and the weight shift to do most of the work. I try to downtempo my driving form as much as possible to control distances to reach short tees. Once I get to a point where I think I could go no slower, I push myself to go slower again. Lo and behold, I would eventually start overshooting the basket again. I got to a point where I figured out where I'd prefer to change discs or lines versus slow the swing down even further or modify my stance etc.

So this also taught my body and brain a lot about where distance comes from. Watching discs sail farther and farther with less and less effort is a huge intervention IMO. I started to realize just how little effort and momentum I could put into any given shot. Scores and control went up accordingly. Distance gets easier over time.

I think like RB is suggesting, the thing causing my discs to overshoot tees while moving as slow as I can is the thing you want to preserve and develop when going uptempo to intentionally get more distance. I want any stank I put on the disc to not ruin that chain of events in my throws. I also never want to introduce pure "strong-arming" as an option, because I'm always trying to improve my sequence and control. And it's really compelling to "strong-arm" as a form of distance control when you first develop "too much" of it.

At a certain point I think different bodies and players have preferences that will vary for one reason or another. But this is a way I am learning about my style and it simplifies everything.

Also worth mentioning that Seabas drills are basically a giant toolkit for throwing on uneven footing, needing to modify parts of form to the goal, etc. You can start to get pretty adept at when you swap among options and encounter the tradeoffs. I've gotten to the point where it's becoming more fun to problem solve the scrambles and I don't really think about it much after picking my line. Body takes care of itself for the most part. And if I'm feeling a little weak off the tee that day with my new driving form I can always back off to various standstill strategies or still get a lot out of throwing with less momentum.

Last thing: if the complete game is driving, upshots/scrambles, and putting, consider the value of always drawing from the same fundamental move for every task. If you have a broad and deep toolkit, the chances you get 2 or 3 of those things all to line up in a given round is higher than otherwise. Sufficient, deliberate practice raises the floor and the ceiling over time. You also can bounce back from ruts faster.

Bryant and drk, I swear I am practicing my putting this week.

I think the demon being discussed here is just...keeping the whole swing in-tact and making it more powerful. There is no additional thing happening. You perceive yourself to be clamping harder maybe, but you aren't fundamentally adding something that doesn't exist in lower power throws.

Am I wrong? Genuinely curious because I have not actually found a way to add to the simple concept at the root of the swing.

 

[Brychanus]

I think the demon being discussed here is just...keeping the whole swing in-tact and making it more powerful. There is no additional thing happening. You perceive yourself to be clamping harder maybe, but you aren't fundamentally adding something that doesn't exist in lower power throws.

Am I wrong? Genuinely curious because I have not actually found a way to add to the simple concept at the root of the swing.

No, I think it's exactly what you're saying. I was kinda trying to pre-empt the idea that you need to add magic or some new muscle or that effort is a separable thing. I think it all (ideally?) scales together. Trying to avoid/back out of a language quagmire here if I can hehe

 

[RowingBoats]

Ugh, I think I'm risking running afoul with my wording. What I really mean, is that I don't think there is anything your arm can do other than the seemingly instinctual things that it automatically does.

I read the 'demon' thing to be some secret way you can use your arm to increase speed and I just don't see it. I certainly have tried it, but there is just no way for your arm to keep up with the forces you can generate with your lower body and core.

 

[RowingBoats]

I also never want to introduce pure "strong-arming" as an option, because I'm always trying to improve my sequence and control. And it's really compelling to "strong-arm" as a form of distance control when you first develop "too much" of it.

This, to me, is a harder lesson than learning how to standstill a 400' drive. This is where you really learn if you have the timing and feel of the backhand...or even a putting stroke.

 

[Brychanus]

I'm working on my ability to use fewer words. Let's see.

Ugh, I think I'm risking running afoul with my wording. What I really mean, is that I don't think there is anything your arm can do other than the seemingly instinctual things that it automatically does.

I read the 'demon' thing to be some secret way you can use your arm to increase speed and I just don't see it. I certainly have tried it, but there is just no way for your arm to keep up with the forces you can generate with your lower body and core.

This sounds right.

This, to me, is a harder lesson than learning how to standstill a 400' drive. This is where you really learn if you have the timing and feel of the backhand...or even a putting stroke.

This is sneaky right. It's the thing many people have trouble believing and often don't have the patience to learn. Seems like it's more likely to happen on its own when you start young and is a freaking mess for many adults. It actually took me getting hurt 3 times and "gamifying" it like I was saying before it started to happen more reliably on its own.

 

[RowingBoats]

I'm working on my ability to use fewer words. Let's see.



This sounds right.



This is sneaky right. It's the thing many people have trouble believing and often don't have the patience to learn. Seems like it's more likely to happen on its own when you start young and is a freaking mess for many adults. It actually took me getting hurt 3 times and "gamifying" it like I was saying before it started to happen more reliably on its own.

There has to be room for some kind of drill that distills how slow you can go and still generate more force than you intuitively expect. Honestly that might be something worth pursuing for one of you smart people.

 

[Brychanus]

There has to be room for some kind of drill that distills how slow you can go and still generate more force than you intuitively expect. Honestly that might be something worth pursuing for one of you smart people.

For all the SW and golf slow swing drills, this is the totally curious and vexxing thing and I almost wonder if people just need to stumble into it that works kinetically for them after enough reinforcement and get an "aha." Curious what others think.

I am not sure if I'm smart enough to divine "one drill to rule them all" on that front, but I have a half answer because it was totally alarming and unintentional when it happened. Eventually it just became part of the procedure, so much that I kinda forgot it but remembered it as soon as you said this. It was like a swing tuning fork after that point despite all my struggles.

Here's the first time I did a pendulum hammer X-step and actually hit my bag. On the first try, without intending to, it punched clean through the hit point. It felt like I was barely doing anything and you can see I was surprised right after it happened. I remember it so well now because I was thinking "give it a little tappy now" and just blasted clean through it like the canvas wasn't even there. You can probably even tell that my body kinda understood how to do it even though I wasn't even really thinking about it.



As a drill you can imagine slowing it down more and more to try and get a similar effect. Or maybe that is most effective for former martial artists or people as in love with hammers as me and SW or Blake, iuno.

The hard part was still how to deliver that "hit" on the stupid disc. It took me months longer to improve the basis for that move and get it connected more reliably to throwing. In hindsight I didn't even get as much as I could have out of my posture or backswing or the ground or my legs or hips with that hammer swing. How much more abused could that bag have been? I think one psychological mistake I made was caring more about the bag than I should have or I could have just found another object to learn to pound slowly and then immediately throw discs into. But holy **** that taught me something really important in just one swing.

It still stands out to me that the first important thing that came to my mind was physically hitting something with a lever with something as precise as a hammer head. A goal to strike through the target, then doing it. It's tactile. Kinetic. Swinging with mAss. Obvious power with very low muscle. Slash Thru. Door frame drill with resistance band. Shaolin lumberjack. Throwing sledgehammers. Ruins your stuff a little but feels worth it later.

 

[bryantlikes]

I found that I get early release when I try to out race the pendulum, even by a tiny amount, and screw up the swing sequence.

I could be wrong, but I think what he is saying is pretty much in the orbit of standard grip advice.

The grip has to be dynamic, and allowing it to be dynamic facilitates a significant natural reaction that occurs at the right time.

Early release and grip lock, in my experience, are better explained with something that went wrong far earlier in the swing.

So when i was training this at first I had to exaggerate and basically no grip the disc and I eventually I could feel myself try to hold on a little but it was too late. I threw nothing but slips/early releases. I think right now I've found a good middleground of starting grip. It took a while but the body learned when it's time to clamp a bit better. This might change for me now but what caused early releases in the past was what felt like a lack of commitment to the shot/scared of yoinking it.

Thank you all! I think I was attributing the early release to the wrong thing which then lead to another wrong thing.

I gave it a try tonight on one of my local courses and worked on keeping a relaxed grip prior to the throw. I always try to relax my shoulders and arms, but would then purposely grip the disc.

If it wasn't for a chain out (spit out the back, teetered on the cage, then fell out) I would have had a new best.

I'll keep experimenting with it but seems like a great break through.

 

[YoYoNinjaBoy]

Ugh, I think I'm risking running afoul with my wording. What I really mean, is that I don't think there is anything your arm can do other than the seemingly instinctual things that it automatically does.

I read the 'demon' thing to be some secret way you can use your arm to increase speed and I just don't see it. I certainly have tried it, but there is just no way for your arm to keep up with the forces you can generate with your lower body and core.

Sometimes there's a couple frames in pro slow mo footage where their face goes from being relaxed to looking like a powering up dbz character during the rip. After looking for examples it seems to be not very common or at least an exaggeration so I think I just read into it too much as an excuse to keep pulling.

 

[YoYoNinjaBoy]

For the curious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biWbdu-E6UE

I fell into some old bad habits focusing on not doing instead of doing but here's me today 330' diamond 171g hyzerturnover and a 300' teebird3 flat linedrive. First gonna work on keeping my weight a little more towards the target I fix this easily if I focus on it I just forget. Can pretty much throw my previous max max distance on at will with better consistent nose angle (FINALLY). Don't know how much more work I'll put in as I plan to just continue to play rec and have far surpassed my original goals when I decided I really wanted to learn. I think I'm more addicted to working on throwing then I am playing the game though.. My girlfriend and I are constantly setting new bests on every course we play and today she felt the heavy disc too. It was fleeting but I am so excited for her.

 

[YoYoNinjaBoy]

A trick I'm using to make sure It doesn't go away is to make sure I really feel the pendulum before I start my x step. Towards that goal the elephant walk to start was serendipitous but it's working great for consistency. I'm gonna keep doing it for now.

 

[Kennets]

Not sure if you have a form thread going on and i know brychanus and many others will be better at breaking it down, but, just a few pointers for you. (No harm meant, at all).

- Your footwork is off. You're planting slightly open and getting into a horse stance (hard to tell exactly from the camera angle.

- brace is off too.

- swing is off. Looks like you don't get in the "pocket" efficient.

Hammer drills is key for me, when i need to work on all off the above.

Sorry for the short answer, at work at the moment.

That being said, love the progress man, keep on going!

 

[Kennets]

Reading my post back, this wasn't informative at all. Sorry about that, shouldn't comment without some more info about drills.

- overthrow got a decent video on basic footwork.

- seabass 22 got a ton of amazing drills. Crush the can, power of posture, "loading the bow and arrow"
And many many more. Watch all of his videos really
- aceitdiscgolf (brychanus) and seabass22 both got great hammer drills.

- look up the topic "shift from behind" on here, amazing reading, along with some great ball golf videos.

- dgspindoctor (jaani) got some great videos too.

Sorry if i came on like an elitists douche, you're doing great and got some good things going in your throw man!

 

[YoYoNinjaBoy]

Not sure if you have a form thread going on and i know brychanus and many others will be better at breaking it down, but, just a few pointers for you. (No harm meant, at all).

- Your footwork is off. You're planting slightly open and getting into a horse stance (hard to tell exactly from the camera angle.

- brace is off too.

- swing is off. Looks like you don't get in the "pocket" efficient.

Hammer drills is key for me, when i need to work on all off the above.

Sorry for the short answer, at work at the moment.

That being said, love the progress man, keep on going!

Appreciate it.
Closed plant is fixed with a swing thought it's one of those things that sneaks back in

Bracing better is one of the things I am actively working on. One of the ideas in my head is that a larger stagger final step will help.

Trying to get into the pocket currently breaks the pendulum and weird **** happens. Before heavy disc I had a nice looking beto drill pocket. Not sure what to do about that. Maybe I'm a feldberg

Basically I think I need to cook. Hopefully be back in a month or so with where I land.

 

[Brychanus]

Sometimes there's a couple frames in pro slow mo footage where their face goes from being relaxed to looking like a powering up dbz character during the rip. After looking for examples it seems to be not very common or at least an exaggeration so I think I just read into it too much as an excuse to keep pulling.

Just some unsolicited advice and YMMV. Let the whole chain do its work and get as much out of gravity and momentum and rhythm and posture and training and retaining smooth leverage as you can. As you add more momentum/impact force into the plant, more tempo etc. the chain will naturally exert more effort (or you'll be collapsing). But it should still be a smooth flow of motion. If you feel janks, hitches, jerks, etc., you probably want to throw slow enough to clean it up and smooth it out. Like RB is saying (I think), it's not like this is a magical effect on top of the rest. It's mostly just what happens as part of throwing when you power up.

Now just some general reflections. Personally this is what the biggest benefit of slowing down to momentum/effort levels and maximizing them has gained me recently. As soon as I hit a certain level and feel or see some jank, I slow down a bit and work in that range. I feel less and less like I'm working hard the day I'm throwing. Sometimes I'm sore the next day in muscle groups that were underdeveloped and legitimately need to do some conditioning. Upper right pec area takes some stretching. Recovery cycles improve over time as I've gotten smarter. There have been cycles of this especially the last few months after shifting more of the power burden on the strong muscle groups in the lower body and core. It always feels easier at a given distance over time, and overshooting "for free" becomes more common.

"I gotta say I am shocked how much more effort it takes to throw seventy mph than sixty. That's like a big jump. Forty to fifty: easy. Fifty to sixty: easy. Sixty to seventy? Next level."
-Former world distance record holder Simon Lizotte

I think it would be weird to say that a full power drive does not involve effort in the context of the form.

Rhetorical questions: are you already moving like this? Why does it start to feel exponentially more effortful to Simon at 550'-600'? Will that threshold be the same for everyone? Why or why not? What kinds of abilities does a body need to do this? How can you work on it?

For the curious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biWbdu-E6UE

I fell into some old bad habits focusing on not doing instead of doing but here's me today 330' diamond 171g hyzerturnover and a 300' teebird3 flat linedrive. First gonna work on keeping my weight a little more towards the target I fix this easily if I focus on it I just forget. Can pretty much throw my previous max max distance on at will with better consistent nose angle (FINALLY). Don't know how much more work I'll put in as I plan to just continue to play rec and have far surpassed my original goals when I decided I really wanted to learn. I think I'm more addicted to working on throwing then I am playing the game though.. My girlfriend and I are constantly setting new bests on every course we play and today she felt the heavy disc too. It was fleeting but I am so excited for her.

Good to hear it's going well on your goals! Can't help but offer more unsolicited advice. I'd suggest you don't lose the loose, pendulumy rhythm you're developing there. Keep working on syncing up and tempo etc.

I personally won't gatekeep your steps & they can help you achieve a flow and rhythm, though mechanically I would point out that you are losing a lot of leverage and leaving a lot from gravity on the table there. Posture can improve (switch from power stance to athletic stance, relax at the spine), pocket can become less flat and shoulder could be going more internally rotated at the shoulder, tilted axis could develop, you can land and swing more compressed on the plant leg as part of your shift and so on. That rabbit hole goes deep. If you are taking it slow on your own for now, might suggest that if you want to throw that way you work on squaring up that rear foot and work on "shifting from behind" like Kennets is suggesting. Maybe play with the seabas door frame drills. Look at The Hips thread and try to understand what golf can teach you - that also explains a lot of the jargon. A lot of the ideas from those drills and others are like compound interest over time even if you struggle with them at first. Expect ups and downs. It's ok.

Watch all these pumps and throws and try to see and feel what they have in common with the generous basement man.

Rhetorical questions: Why is that big circular motion he's doing the same as what they're doing? Why does it scale up to more power if you retain the form but scale it up with momentum and gravity? Why is this hard for people to see and do? What did swimming and baseball earlier in life give him?

Why is Gurthie overthrowing this 315' hole with a slowbie for the same reasons?

Should you question it? Or should you just do it?

Maraka has advice at 2:31:
https://vimeo.com/9063231?embedded=true&source=vimeo_logo&owner=2983300

(Clarifying questions still encouraged)

Now get out there and have fun!