16th ND State Championships - A Tier - Sept 4-6th

[Anon]

Unlikely that the Reservoir course at Jamestown will ever hold a state championship event again. The area saw multiple years of flooding and at least 6 baskets are completely rusted due to sitting in the water for months at a time, they've also lost numerous trees and have had a couple of baskets stolen.

When I designed the 27 holes and we implemented with the great help of Doug Hogan and JPR back about 10 years ago, one of the things that I stressed to the Stutsman County Park Board (which is the maintenance/operations entity) was the need to properly maintain and mow the area of the design. They (the Stutsman County Park Board members) all agreed it would be no problem. I should mention that Jamestown Parks and Rec (Doug Hogan) went above and beyond to help get the course in even though he didn't have a dog in the fight, but he bent over backwards to help make the course a reality. The true reality is that Stutsman County Park Board, has never mowed it correctly. They barely have done anything other than what they were already doing for the other park user on the island. If it hadn't been for the help of JPR (Doug Hogan) supplying equipment for us to mow it, it probably never would've even gotten implemented. I, along with Brandon Balzer's help, mowed it 2 or 3 times correctly, and Chris Witkop also did it once and I think even Charles Sullivan did it once in the early years in order to be able to run tournaments. Unfortunately the best stretch of holes on that course is 13-19 and the Park Board has never mowed it (other than a narrow walking path).

In retrospect, I probably should've toned it back and only have done 18 holes completely on the island portion - which still would've been a killer course. I heard Tom is planning on running something out there in a week or two. But with all the trees gone on 10-11-12, 21 and 25, it definitely isn't the same epic course.

It is in such run-down shape that Joey and I have actually asked the PDGA to remove it from the list of courses in the directory - I don't know why they haven't, but they should. It is an embarrassment to see what was such a great course in such sad shape.

That really sucks to hear. We always try to get out there at least once per year in the early season just to avoid some of the overgrowth, ticks, etc. It is truly an amazing piece of land and a total tragedy that the course hasn't been maintained. I think in a bigger 'market' with a dedicated club a course like that could be a 4+ star and beyond.

If Fargo had some terrain like that I don't think I'd have a single thing to complain about as far as course variety is concerned. Relief like that is SORELY lacking in the western side of the state. I was definitely hoping a state tournament might be able to get things back in order.

 

[WhaqP]

Maintenance is only a part of the issue. There is no way to replace the trees that were lost on 6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 21 and 25 or fix the issues that were caused by being underwater for the summers of 2009-2011.

But I agree in an area where there were at least a handful of people who cared it would be an amazing course.

I always thought that Fargo had a nice and diverse selection of courses. I would trade you an amazing course that you have to maintain for Riverfront, Iwen, and Trollwood.

 

[Anon]

I always thought that Fargo had a nice and diverse selection of courses. I would trade you an amazing course that you have to maintain for Riverfront, Iwen, and Trollwood.

We do have a pretty darn good variety. Iwen being an especially needed addition. Trollwood I feel is kind of over hyped and lacks the trees / elevation to really make it sing. But its still a very solid course and kicks my butt on a regular basis.

I'd say our only real knock in Fargo is the lack of varied elevation - which the Reservoir has in spades. It really adds another element to the game when you have to throw up and down such large hills. Amazing how much of a difference 90 miles can make in ND.

 

[rickles]

We do have a pretty darn good variety. Iwen being an especially needed addition. Trollwood I feel is kind of over hyped and lacks the trees / elevation to really make it sing. But its still a very solid course and kicks my butt on a regular basis.

I'd say our only real knock in Fargo is the lack of varied elevation - which the Reservoir has in spades. It really adds another element to the game when you have to throw up and down such large hills. Amazing how much of a difference 90 miles can make in ND.

Not everything is flat in ND

 

[DNodland]

Par that matches SSA is a lot better than most pars out there. However, true par, according to the definition, should be lower than SSA. SSA includes OB, other penalties, and too much wind. Par does not.

It looks like SSA was about 67, 71, and 79. I might have gone with pars of 62, 63, and 74. Hard to tell with so few players. Might be able to pin it down more with hole-by-hole scores.

i assign pro par for my courses based on what I know the average pro (1000 rated golfer) is going to shoot on average per hole. The course pars assigned are almost spot on. Again the wind was the big factor in pushing the ssa so high in round 3 - that and the mentally draining aspect of the ob on the course - just like the usdgc.

However - if you saw the layouts there is no way you would assign a par of 62 or 63 to either of the first two rounds. Maybe a stroke or two lower each round would be about it by the definition of par. Those rounds each contained 1 par 4 that is reachable but over the years that hole averages about 4.3 for golfers rated 970 or above. As the closer you try to get to the pin the more likely you will throw ob. None of the other par 4's are reachable Also a couple of the par 5's are 3 able - in one case if you throw two perfectly executed 470' shots and another if you hit a good spot on the fairway and then hit a small island green from there from 400' away.

 

[DNodland]

Is that 9000-10000 feet for an 18 hole layout?


Anyone know what USDGC is?


And why in the hell wouldn't you have the states their again?

I didn't say it say that states wouldn't be here again. I said it wouldn't be here again next year. Historically we have rotated the state championships around the state of ND. It is somewhat of an aberration that it has been in Dickinson 3 out of the last 4 years. It was in Dickinson 3 times in the first 12 years, grand forks 3x, fargo 2x, Bismarck 2x and Jamestown and Williston once each , with fargo again in the other year out of the past 4.

We have come to expect that this tournament will showcase our best and toughest courses and there are currently only 3 or 4 venues that can host it with that in mind( for pro and advanced divisions)

Grand forks - with modified outer loop at Lincoln drive park and temps at riverside Travis can make two very challenging 18 hole courses.

Fargo - Iwen Park - tourney layout is awesome - but prone to flooding and nearly unplayable due to rain as in 2013 - that good old glacial Lake Agassiz mud.

Mandan-Bismarck. It's been held twice at Sibley, but needs to be modified quite a bit to make it tougher and has many subpar baskets and has no elevation change - so it feels like you are throwing the same shot over and over.
sunset in Mandan great challenge - but natural tee pads are crappy/dangerous and also has many old substandard Mach 1's.

So you basically are left with a completely temp course somewhere, Fargo, GF and Dickinson, unless we want to go back to pitch and putt golf.

I don't know how the rest of the state would feel about having it here every year - I suspect there would be a lot of grumbling because about 80% of the tourney golfers reside in the red river valley.

Additionally - I've had enough positive feedback that if it is here and is the state championships than I prefer to run it going forward as an A-tier as the course has enough renown that we are going to continue to see touring pros come to play if we run as an A-tier.

And finally - it is an incredible amount of work effort and dollars to run an event like the one we just had, and not something I have time to do every year. If anyone has 10g lying around that they want to send to me then I will be more than happy to reconsider running it next year:clap:

 

[Anon]

Not everything is flat in ND

Nope. Bismarck rocks too as far as terrain goes. I love that hilly 9 hole next to the pool. Super fun course.

I didn't say it say that states wouldn't be here again. I said it wouldn't be here again next year. Historically we have rotated the state championships around the state of ND. It is somewhat of an aberration that it has been in Dickinson 3 out of the last 4 years. It was in Dickinson 3 times in the first 12 years, grand forks 3x, fargo 2x, Bismarck 2x and Jamestown and Williston once each , with fargo again in the other year out of the past 4.

Has there been any talk about where it might be held next year? Fargo again or back to GF?

 

[DNodland]

Likely one or the other (Fargo or GF) if Travis or Joey have enough help and time to put it on. We will be getting together later this fall and hopefully will have a decision prior to Thanksgiving.

 

[Steve West]

i assign pro par for my courses based on what I know the average pro (1000 rated golfer) is going to shoot on average per hole. The course pars assigned are almost spot on.

That puts you way ahead of most TDs and course designers. Since you are a leader in setting par carefully and accurately, I'd like to see you get all the way to par as defined. I think par will be most helpful once all TDs and course designers use the actual definition.

However - if you saw the layouts there is no way you would assign a par of 62 or 63 to either of the first two rounds. Maybe a stroke or two lower each round would be about it by the definition of par.

Actually, I would not be able to assign par by looking at the layouts, as I am not an expert player. That's why I'm trying to develop a method that mere mortals can apply. And get all methods to sync up with the definition.

A stroke or two lower per round is probably right; par usually works out to be a throw or two lower than SSA. I was only looking at the total scores of the 4 highest rated players – not a real accurate method with so few players, but it got you thinking about it.

Those rounds each contained 1 par 4 that is reachable but over the years that hole averages about 4.3 for golfers rated 970 or above. As the closer you try to get to the pin the more likely you will throw ob.

That average with all those OB's doesn't force it to be par 4, because average with OBs is not the definition.

What percent of 1000-rated players get a 3 (or less)? Enough to say they can expect to score a 3 with errorless play under ordinary weather conditions?

You are an expert player, so if you would say "No way I can expect a 3 on this hole, even if I don't make an error" -- then it's a 4.

Also a couple of the par 5's are 3 able - in one case if you throw two perfectly executed 470' shots and another if you hit a good spot on the fairway and then hit a small island green from there from 400' away.

How often would 1000-rated players get a 4 or better? Or, what score do you play for and expect to be able to get if you don't make an error?

This is all just food for thought. Thanks for all you do.