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2017 Next Generation Disc Golf Top Prize: Car
- Thread starter Discslinger12
- Start date
Disc Golf Live
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2009
- Messages
- 569
Some of these posts make me want to Saab.
Should be a Volvo because you're big on its safety features or because it's a Swedish brand?
Keep in mind that while Latitude 64 is far and away the biggest sponsor, this is a US-based operation. It's Dave and Synthya's brainchild spearheaded by Pat. I'm about 99% certain that the car sponsor did not come to the series via Latitude, but via Pat and his networking. Could be anything.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
Yes, Volvo cause it's Swedish. Go look at events in Europe sponsored by Lat. At least a couple of them have Volvo incentives. And no, I don't think it will be or should be a Volvo. Cost being only one factor. I guess I didn't realize we were having a serious car centered discussion. 
. Of course, I don't take car centered discussions too seriously one way or the other and I'm a big WRC fan.
. Of course, I don't take car centered discussions too seriously one way or the other and I'm a big WRC fan.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
On the other hand, if the car was a WRC spec vehicle, preferably a fiesta, I'd get interested in a hurry and I'd get over my no cars for ams position post haste.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Maybe a brand new vehicle concept from soon-to-be-announced sponsor, IKEA? Some assembly required.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
Only if it comes with that little wrench.
Lazerface
Eagle Member
So, I don't know how to double quote, but this one and the one above it are valid concerns. Aligning with the PDGA is a good forward thinking model and I hope it ends up that way. But it should be give & take. The PDGA should look at large scale tours like this and see if sanctioning can be redefined in some sense. It's in the PDGAs interest to help companies/people running tournaments and tours a business, not a charity. There needs to be flexibility.
The PDGA is a small piece really. For tours and tournaments to be a business venture and for TDs to turn into managers and their volunteers into employees there has to be a massive influx of sponsorship money. That wont happen overnight and the PDGA does not have a magic wand. Maybe Latitude needed to exclude the PDGA this go around to do the car thing and get a real following so they have that marketing leverage for future sponsorship negotiations.
I love what DGPT/DGWT/Latitude are doing because it's laying a foundation for event/tour management to become a business. Hats off to them, because it's a risky venture. Our question was answered - car over sanctioning. It sounds like the 2018 next gen tour could end up being PDGA sanctioned and Lyle can sleep peacefully.
loki the trickster
Birdie Member
I dont know if this was brought up.
How is this going to promote people to play up. I mean how many amateurs dont play up to there actual playing capabilities? Cause i bet the top am1 golfers are good enough to play pro amd at least have a opportunity to get cash... and i could swear thats exactly why the pdga ia adamant that ams get gear and such and not cash, kind of a gentle reminder that if you want to play for cash that you need to go from am to pro.
I am not saying that trying this wont work and it may get more golfers out and playing tournaments, cause i dont see why it wont. But how do you get the golfers up out of the amateurs? Is this going to be like the discmania combine where the top players get invited to join the team or maybe a paid first season as a pro for the top 20? What incentive is there to prevent the top of the feild from continually competing?
How is this going to promote people to play up. I mean how many amateurs dont play up to there actual playing capabilities? Cause i bet the top am1 golfers are good enough to play pro amd at least have a opportunity to get cash... and i could swear thats exactly why the pdga ia adamant that ams get gear and such and not cash, kind of a gentle reminder that if you want to play for cash that you need to go from am to pro.
I am not saying that trying this wont work and it may get more golfers out and playing tournaments, cause i dont see why it wont. But how do you get the golfers up out of the amateurs? Is this going to be like the discmania combine where the top players get invited to join the team or maybe a paid first season as a pro for the top 20? What incentive is there to prevent the top of the feild from continually competing?
I'm not a huge proponent of big-prize-oriented amateur tournaments. I run all of my tournaments as "True Amateur" with player packs, trophies, and no payouts. That said, I don't think in the long run that stifling amateur compensation is the solution to pushing players to go pro. If the idea is to encourage good players to turn pro, the key is to incentivize them with bigger, more attractive payouts in pro events.
Ams are entitled to stay amateur as long as they want...forever if they're so inclined. It's up to the pro side to make turning pro the more attractive option.
Ams are entitled to stay amateur as long as they want...forever if they're so inclined. It's up to the pro side to make turning pro the more attractive option.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
So, I don't know how to double quote, but this one and the one above it are valid concerns. Aligning with the PDGA is a good forward thinking model and I hope it ends up that way. But it should be give & take. The PDGA should look at large scale tours like this and see if sanctioning can be redefined in some sense. It's in the PDGAs interest to help companies/people running tournaments and tours a business, not a charity. There needs to be flexibility.
The PDGA is a small piece really. For tours and tournaments to be a business venture and for TDs to turn into managers and their volunteers into employees there has to be a massive influx of sponsorship money. That wont happen overnight and the PDGA does not have a magic wand. Maybe Latitude needed to exclude the PDGA this go around to do the car thing and get a real following so they have that marketing leverage for future sponsorship negotiations.
I love what DGPT/DGWT/Latitude are doing because it's laying a foundation for event/tour management to become a business. Hats off to them, because it's a risky venture. Our question was answered - car over sanctioning. It sounds like the 2018 next gen tour could end up being PDGA sanctioned and Lyle can sleep peacefully.
No! I refuse to sleep peacefully. These rational positions don't serve my need to debate. Hmm. I agree, if they use the car to build and then move away from that, meh. At least the goal is fine. I do wonder if the players would resent that.
Regardless, the concept of an am tourish is good.
bnbanbury
Eagle Member
Why is it important to get golfers out of the amateur ranks? I see a lot of middling golfers in the 940 to 960 range put under pressure to move up as if they would be doing something positive for the sport by playing pro.
When I play am, I know that a percentage of my entry goes back to the club/TD and helps pay for things that improve the game or just gives back to the hard working people who put the tournaments on. When i play pro, I'm just trading my money with the other pros in the field and digging into any added cash the club has raised.
Am participation is the backbone of disc golf. I love to see big am fields and wish that more of those 950 guys would stay in the am ranks.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
this.
A great deal of that pressure is other pros looking for more donors.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
It may be pressure from above, but most of the pressure I've seen is from ams below. Hazarding a guess, that's because they want to remove the competition.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
Bnbanbury is correct. For the most part, I'm a donor. I can live with that and the thought that I'm growing the sport. I can understand those who aren't though and don't see it as a character flaw. Most people don't like losing. What bothers me though, are those who aren't as good as they think they are and believe that only if the PDGA, TDs, manufacturers etc. were doing a better job, they could quit their day job and make a living at this.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
How does donating to vastly more skilled players "grow the sport"? IMO the sport would be better positioned to be taken seriously if players such as myself were never thought of as "professionals". (The reason we are is because dg screwed the pooch on it from the get go- "pros" existed before "amateurs" did thus creating a class of mediocre "pros" which allowed for guilting any "amateurs" with any level of skill into moving up.)
I think it's a bit of both, and it depends on where you are and what the demographics are.
I find that there's usually more pressure to move up from the ams below in areas where there aren't many 1000+ rated players in MPO. Those areas tend to be one level off of PDGA standard definitions of divisions...MPO has many 940-970 rated players, MA1 is 900-930, MA2 is 850-900, and so on. The result is usually that if you get any players who have aspirations outside the local area (say to win/place well at Am Nats or Am Worlds) who wants to stay am until he's 970 or better, they get endlessly **** on for "bagging" even when they're actually the only players that truly belong in MA1 by PDGA guidelines.
Whereas the areas with a more top-heavy pro division (solid number of 990+ rated players), MA1 has a good share of 940-960+ rated players and the pressure to move up comes from the pros because they find their field to be somewhat stagnant as players (wisely) aren't rushing as much to get to the Open division before they can really compete.
loki the trickster
Birdie Member
Seriously? If you have the top 10%of ams that can compete with the professionals and they dont bump up it creates the exact same bubble thats in the professional feild. You know the one that make amateurs not want to move up and play to there potential. Well you get that at with the new amateurs that this tournament is supposed to be targeting. Why are they going to want to play when only the top 10% of the feild has a chance to win but the top 10% also wont need to move aside to allow the new and rest of the feild compete for the top prize.
So lets just for argument sake and adding names to people... lets say that the am feild is much like the pro feild where Paul and Ricky now are the top amateurs! How many players will get the opportunity to win the top prize? Probably none at all. But taking the 970 and above players or overall winners and removing them from the next year's competition. This would allow the 940 and 950 amateurs a opportunity to compete for the top prizes.
This is not about forcing the bump as much as it is keeping the amateur feild true. As it stands you can be 990-1000 rated and still play amateur. So what you saying is its okay to have the skill set and proformance of a pro competing in the amateur ranks and the 880-950 amateurs are going to be okay donating money to someone who definitely can play with the professionals and take money? Now lest look at this series you have to qualify to move on who is going to move on the 970 player or the 930-940 player?
The problem with this is amateur is not a skill level. It's a classification based on compensation. There is nothing wrong with a 1000 rated amateur. You want that guy to turn pro, make it worth his while to turn pro rather than force him to move.
This example gets tossed out a lot, but Tiger Woods won 3 straight US Amateur championships. He could easily have joined the pro tour after the first one (he was already playing the occasional tour event anyway), but he remained an amateur in part so he could play in college and in part so he could keep playing the US Amateur. There was no crying foul that he was cheating anyone by not "moving up" sooner.
And this with a pro tour that gave him plenty of financial incentive (not to mention endorsement opportunities) to jump in as soon as possible. He was sacrificing a good chunk of money to stay amateur (not that he will every really be hurting for it as a result).
We don't have a pro tour with that sort of financial draw. Whether they turn pro or not, 99% of disc golfers still have to go out in the real world and find a job to pay the bills. If remaining an amateur is more conducive to their continuing to play, so be it.
