30' basket to tree guideline (A tier vs..) guideline

[Ender175]

I think a basket without at least a couple obstacles inside 30 feet is boring course design

 

[grodney]

There's never a stymie position once a ball is on the green in golf

Well, if there ever *is*, it makes big news and gets loud complaints. You might enjoy this story about Phil Mickelson and the 18th green at Quail Hollow in Charlotte.

http://green-side.blogspot.com/2010/05/phil-takes-big-rip-at-quails-greens.html

Excerpts:
"
"the greens are some of the worst-designed greens we have on tour and 18 is one of them," Mickelson said. "I would say 18 is the worst on tour except it's not the worst on this golf course.
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He hit his approach shot 58 feet past the hole but because of the hole location and the slope, Mickelson couldn't try to make the putt. He had to play to the right of the hole and try to make the eight-footer for par.
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"But my mistake there was hitting it past the pin. I know that green is ridiculous. I never should have put myself in that position."
"

 

[JC17393]

The ball golf green that always comes to mind for me is number 6 at Riviera in Los Angeles. It hosts a PGA tour event every single year.

 

[ohtobediscing]

"Someone Said" in the OP seems an ignorant, egotistical blowhard who likes to toot his own horn for all to hear.

On the other hand, I also have a throwing acquaintance or two who'll play Milo but not Timber, Blue Lake but not Dabney, Pier but not McCormick, Stubb Stewart or Horning's. If its not open air to an unobscured basket, they don't play. Absolutely gutless.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

It's also ok to put a basket next to a 4-5 foot dropoff.

 

[coupe]

It's also ok to put a basket next to a 4-5 foot dropoff.

Or a 30+ footer:

 

[RobA]

I have no problem with baskets being near a drop off.

My pet peeve is when the drop off is into a body of water. There is a hole at my home course where the basket is 5 feet away from a 10 foot drop off into a deep creek which is OB. Misjudge slightly, and you lose a stroke and possible a disc.

 

[Jenga54]

I have no problem with baskets being near a drop off.

My pet peeve is when the drop off is into a body of water. There is a hole at my home course where the basket is 5 feet away from a 10 foot drop off into a deep creek which is OB. Misjudge slightly, and you lose a stroke and possible a disc.

= new designer thinking he's achieved Risk/Reward

Really = Course slowdowns, Safety Hazard, and deciding how much a replacement putter costs.

I'll admit that I'm OK with deciding to try and carry a water shot with a drive or lay up, I don't know that a real possibility of losing a putter forever on a putt is real course design.

 

[forehandfranz]

It's also ok to put a basket next to a 4-5 foot dropoff.

Only played this great course once many years ago, but it is this green that stuck in my memory. This is what makes putting interesting! Not just for the scenery, but for the skills and risks that are involved. It's basically substituting the sloped terrain of golf, to the air canvas of disc golf.

On many of the open courses (and greens) on the PDGA tour, the putting has gotten so dull that you won't find players being challenged much within the circle, or very far out of it. That's why they are considering using the smaller targets on some of these greens, which I think would be a nice addition. But the players should be required to have touch and have to shape their putts on occasion. Wouldn't it be boring to see all ball golf greens perfectly flat, so that the players could repeat the same flat putt over and over again? No less should be required in disc golf.

In the end, give me elevation, trees, tunnels, tree branches and elevated pins over an open flat green any day.

 

[RobA]

= new designer thinking he's achieved Risk/Reward

Really = Course slowdowns, Safety Hazard, and deciding how much a replacement putter costs.

I'll admit that I'm OK with deciding to try and carry a water shot with a drive or lay up, I don't know that a real possibility of losing a putter forever on a putt is real course design.

Yes, I am not a fan of needing to lay up on a putt if the drive isn't absolutely perfect. During casual play we play "goalie" for each other and take the stroke if the putt would have gone in.

 

[coupe]

Yes, I am not a fan of needing to lay up on a putt if the drive isn't absolutely perfect. During casual play we play "goalie" for each other and take the stroke if the putt would have gone in.

Uh … you DO know you can have someone play "goalie" in sanctioned tournament play, don't you?

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

I have no problem with baskets being near a drop off.

My pet peeve is when the drop off is into a body of water. There is a hole at my home course where the basket is 5 feet away from a 10 foot drop off into a deep creek which is OB. Misjudge slightly, and you lose a stroke and possible a disc.

I'm fine if my disc is retrievable from said body of water. The loss of disc makes me layup, not the OB stroke.

 

[RobA]

I'm fine if my disc is retrievable from said body of water. The loss of disc makes me layup, not the OB stroke.

I don't like the proposition of losing a disc or a stroke in this case. Move the basket back 10 feet and it becomes a different hole.

 

[araytx]

I heard this statement over the weekend while laying out some alternate positions and wanted to confirm it's mostly an exaggerated rumor, not a hard rule.

Someone said "It can't be an A tier course if there's a tree within the circle".

I call BS. Is there such a rule? Is there a course inspection prior to sanctioning an A tier?

I feel it has to vary based on the actual character of the hole and landscape. Contextually in the open and sparse courses in my area, there are not enough nor large enough trees to control the line of play and sometimes the only way to shape an approach to the target is to block out line near the basket.

For example, we have a hole with a short wall of 15' tall junipers inline with the tee box; basket A on the left, basket B on the right creating two different approaches. If the basket was 30' from the nearest tree branch, a player could throw a normal right to left to the right basket and a high left to right (spike) to the left basket barely taking the trees into account.

• there's no definition of an "A" tier course
• isn't "A" tier was tied directly to the amount of added tournament money
• even if it's a guideline or suggested, there has to be some context
• possible reason 1: so there's a fair line of flight to the circle
• possible reason 2: so players can't just stuff it into the tree and take a drop right in the circle
• possible reason 3: so a player gets a putt with the circle
• possible reason 4: to protect the trees

If what "someone said" is true, then nearly every wooded hole where the basket is in the woods doesn't comply. And we all know of A-tier holes like that. I don't know of many designers who intentionally cut our a 10m swath of trees to be sure there were none from any angle.

The only A-tier played in the Dallas area is played on Harry Myers and Audubon. Both courses have trees near baskets on multiple holes. The courses would be far too easy if they weren't.

The Veterans Park Open celebrated it's 25th year this year and is the longest running A-tier in Texas. There are several baskets within 10 feet of a tree or trees.

 

[EricW]

Great feedback. Agree with all this, challenge is fair game but nothing impossible ridiculous or dangerous.

Regarding dropoffs, shooting down can be worse than up. Not uncommon around here (Reno/Tahoe) to have a basket nestled up against a big granite outcroppings or boulder. Parking a disc up on top pretty quickly makes the chain head block off the basket. Have never heard anyone call it unfair even though it can be close to a full stymie. On the positive side of the position, it also gives the exciting wildcard chance for a ricochet which always pumps up the group and creates a story!

Remember one of John's articles saying something to the tune of "Can't have amazing recoveries without rough penalties." There are no stories or memories made in a 30' flat empty circle.

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The person who relayed the guideline wasn't being egotistical, just passing on what he'd heard during a round from a very experience older pro who didn't like trees near the basket (particularly if it challenged soft right to left lines).

We were digging alternate spots (never talk bad about someone who shows up to dig a hole!). My mistake was not having the position staked before the digging crew showed up (pro tip). I knew where I wanted it within 10', but needed someone to sight off the tee pad so it was nicely framed through a gap but not visible from a wrong tee. Being un-staked let the suggestions and debate fly. opcorn: It was last hole of the day and I'd already passed out the thank you beers!

 

[RobA]

Uh … you DO know you can have someone play "goalie" in sanctioned tournament play, don't you?

I've never seen it happen in a sanctioned tourney, and I'm not sure if that should be something we should be aiming for. It sounds ridiculous to me.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I've never seen it happen in a sanctioned tourney, and I'm not sure if that should be something we should be aiming for. It sounds ridiculous to me.

Already happened more than once and it was made a rule option partly as a result. Barry Schultz (spectating not playing at the time) knocked down a player's throw at the Memorial several years back to keep it from going in the water. I don't think he was penalized but thrower did get the OB penalty. Spotters at various times have saved throws at the last minute from the water. The Rules Committee decided to allow other people to save your disc if you asked them. Then, you had to play it as if it was lost and re-throw with a penalty (804.03G).

 

[DougCrawford]

Hole 16 at the USDGC is full of trees

 

[RobA]

Already happened more than once and it was made a rule option partly as a result. Barry Schultz (spectating not playing at the time) knocked down a player's throw at the Memorial several years back to keep it from going in the water. I don't think he was penalized but thrower did get the OB penalty. Spotters at various times have saved throws at the last minute from the water. The Rules Committee decided to allow other people to save your disc if you asked them. Then, you had to play it as if it was lost and re-throw with a penalty (804.03G).

Thank you for citing that rule. In the case where a disc goes in the water, you know exactly where it is, but just can't get to it or even see it, is the disc considered lost or OB? This happens very often on that hole where the deep creek is 5 feet behind the basket? It can be the difference between a circle 3 and a 5.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Thank you for citing that rule. In the case where a disc goes in the water, you know exactly where it is, but just can't get to it or even see it, is the disc considered lost or OB? This happens very often on that hole where the deep creek is 5 feet behind the basket? It can be the difference between a circle 3 and a 5.

A disc that everyone knows has gone into OB water or agrees that's where it went, will be considered OB and not lost, even if you can't find or retrieve it. However, the RC decided you should get the more severe lost disc penalty if you call out for someone to save it.