Another provisional question

[razorsmith.com]

Friendly discussion came up today. My drive comes to rest on or about on unclear OB line on perpendicular plane to tee box. Group says I am OB, I say not so I take provisional. Whether or not I am actually OB does not matter for this question. Both my provisional 2nd and/or my drop and throwing 3rd shot would be taken from same spot. So here is question:

Do I have to play them both out or play once and count result with and without penalty, determining later the correct ruling.

Discussion was why play both out when they are from same spot. I Understand if the point where disc entered OB is different than where it may have come back inbounds. But looking in rules 804.06 is unclear in this case. Ultimately I stated you need to play both always regardless if the two lies are hundreds of feet apart, 10 feet apart, or the same spot. Declare you are the playing group ruled shot and the declare you are playing the provisional. Thoughts or a clear rules identifier?

Darren

 

[teemkey]

Do I have to play them both out or play once and count result with and without penalty, determining later the correct ruling.

yes

Discussion was why play both out when they are from same spot.

It's a good question, but an unlikely situation. The chances that your provisional and your drop land at the spot are small. Usually they will be different; so a general rule is applied to the specific case.

 

[scarpfish]

Sometimes you can get these sort of matters in near/might be OB situations where you come a meter in from the OB line whether you're OB or not.

Declare you are the playing group ruled shot and the declare you are playing the provisional. Thoughts or a clear rules identifier?

You should play both lies, but I would play the in bounds first since its dependent upon the spot of your disc. You can then do the OB since that is dependent upon where it last went out.

Always remember your provisional rule in these situations. At a tournament some years back, my disc landed in an area that my entire card stated was OB (because it was the last round, it was hot out, and they wanted to speed things along). I, reading the OB rules was convinced that it wasn't. I insisted upon taking my provisional. After conferring with the TD, I was right. It was a meaningless stroke that meant nothing in the results, but it was the principle that counted.

 

[araytx]

Sorry, but I believe the ruling is you must play both out. That's how provisionals are played regardless. Think about it like this .... even if you're playing from the same location, whether or not you're OB CAN affect the decisions you make. The obvious example is it's the last hole, you're one or two strokes ahead, and one choice provides a risk/reward vs. the other being an almost sure win. Or vice versa trying to catch the leader. Even though both the regular lie and provisional lie are from the same spot, you may make a different decision with the OB lie and the IB lie.

 

[_MTL_]

In a provisional situation you ALWAYS have to play out both scenarios.

However a provisional should not be played here - the group / official has to make a ruling at the time of the shot. How is the TD going to make a ruling once the disc is picked up? The rules prohibit the use of video / photo evidence so that wouldn't work.

If it's so close you can't judge it, the benefit of the doubt goes to the thrower.

The only time a provisional should be played in regards to OB is if the ruling of the OB is unclear which likely falls back on the TD for not clearly marking the course.

An example happened to me years ago. A creek that is normally pretty wet was unusually dry, so there were ropes to show the creek line. I kicked and hit an usually far distance left and landed in the water. The sheet said we were playing ropes not water - well the ropes had stopped probably 15 - 20 feet right of where I was.

There was no debate that I was in the water, however the provisional came because the OB sheet did not address water and the OB line had stopped.

While on this tangent, an OB line can never stop. It should always be a full and complete area.

 

[razorsmith.com]

These answers all support what I stated last night which was to play both shots. The argument was why play both shots when playing from the same lie? I was hoping the rules stated something specific and I was just missing it.

Provisionals are great for speeding up play and every time I have used them they usually have been due to a lack of the group's understanding of how to play a certain shot so we play it and take it back to TD. Win some and lose some but that is the game. Thank you all for your feedback. Happy throwing.

darren

 

[gcr_russell]

If I'm understanding your situation clearly the discussion was not whether the disc was close to OB but whether or not a penalty applied due to it's closeness? Effectively regardless of a penalty being assessed or not you had an identical next throw one meter out from the OB line next?
If my understanding is correct than it is not a provisional situation. You would play the disc out the single time like normal, and mark the scorecard with both scores (one with a penalty stroke and one without) and inquire with the TD about his OB ruling before finalizing your score. You are not playing out 2 different scenarios here, but only one where the sole difference is a penalty stroke, not anything changing the physicality of what you played.

 

[kenjiac]

^^^^^ I agree

 

[JoakimBL]

There is no penalty for being close to OB, so clearly the question is whether or not the disc is OB. If the disc is OB, there is a penalty, if not no penalty. The ONLY way to decide after the fact, is to play out both scenarios using a provisional, and pick the correct one later, when clearing the issue with the TD. Whether or not the lie is the same or different is irrelevant. As others have pointed out, the player may choose different approaches for the next shot, depending on whether or not the previous shot is declared OB.
However, if the player is indifferent, I probably would not have a problem just letting him play out the hole, and then later determine if the OB penalty applies or not, but i'm not sure the rules support that. In any case, it's important that these things be cleared up, before any shot is taken, and that it is clear which shot is what scenario.

 

[gcr_russell]

I disagree JoakimBL. Would you play a provisional if no one on the card remembered if the 2 meter penalty was in effect or not and you were ten feet in a tree?
I say not a chance, you would put an asterisk on that hole, playing it out once and inquire at the end about the possible penalty stroke. This isn't about the way the hole plays out at all, but about whether or not a penalty stroke is included or not.

 

[_MTL_]

There is no penalty for being close to OB, so clearly the question is whether or not the disc is OB. If the disc is OB, there is a penalty, if not no penalty. The ONLY way to decide after the fact, is to play out both scenarios using a provisional, and pick the correct one later, when clearing the issue with the TD. Whether or not the lie is the same or different is irrelevant. As others have pointed out, the player may choose different approaches for the next shot, depending on whether or not the previous shot is declared OB.
However, if the player is indifferent, I probably would not have a problem just letting him play out the hole, and then later determine if the OB penalty applies or not, but i'm not sure the rules support that. In any case, it's important that these things be cleared up, before any shot is taken, and that it is clear which shot is what scenario.

This is 100% incorrect.

If a player did this I would tell them to make a group call and refuse to make a ruling. Groups have to make calls if an official isn't present / available.

 

[JoakimBL]

First of all, that is not a comparable scenario. A provisional is used when there is a question of the lie. There is no question about the lie, with a disc 10 feet up a tree, unless it's a question about where to mark it on the ground. Secondly, it's the players own fault if he don't know if the 2M rule is in effect, and that is not a valid reason to play a provisional. If a disc is OB or not, is a question of the lie, and therefor exactly a valid reason to play a provisional.

 

[JoakimBL]

This is 100% incorrect.

If a player did this I would tell them to make a group call and refuse to make a ruling. Groups have to make calls if an official isn't present / available.

Not it's not. A player has the option to appeal an incorrect decision. And the only way to know how to handle that is to play a provisional.
An example: What if your group decides you are OB, because your disc touches the OB line? That is an incorrect call obviously, but hey, group call, or what?

804.06 Provisional Throws
To appeal the group's or an official's ruling. A set of provisional throws may be taken to complete a hole as part of an appeal when the player disagrees with the group decision and an official is not readily available, or if the player wishes to appeal the decision of an official. The scores from both sets of throws shall be recorded. The proper ruling and score are then determined by the Director at the end of the round.

 

[_MTL_]

An example: What if your group decides you are OB, because your disc touches the OB line? That is an incorrect call obviously, but hey, group call, or what?

This is a rules intrepretation. You aren't disagree that the disc is touching the line only that once the disc touches the line it's automatically considered OB.

However you can't play a provisional because your group can't decide whether a disc is in or out because they can't make a decision. There is a big difference between the two.

Basically, you can't provisional because you are disagreeing on the location of the lie.

 

[gcr_russell]

If the disc is on the OB line and crossed (if it is indeed OB) at the same point then the lie is the same moving 1 meter in from the OB line. That makes the lie identical but the penalty scoring the only topic up for debate.

 

[JoakimBL]

802.03 Marking The Lie
A. The position of a thrown disc on the in-bounds playing surface marks its lie.

You don't have to move the disc, if it is inbounds, but have the option to do so. You have to if it is OB. So there is a debate about where the lie is. And therefor you have the option to play a provisional, if you disagree with the group decision. Pretty clear cut if you read the rules. I even posted the rule, so you don't have to look it up yourself.
Also, and that may or may not apply to this specific question, if the disc is OB, you have the option to play from previous lie, or a drop zone if there is one, or to move the disc inbounds where it last crossed from IB to OB.
Also

804.04 Out-of-Bounds
A. A disc is out-of-bounds if its position is clearly and completely surrounded by an out-of-bounds area.

If there is a reasonable debate whether or not the disc is in or out, how can it "clearly" be out? If the OB line itself is unclear, any close call is not clear at all, and you could most definitely argue that the disc is not OB and the group made a bad call, which you intend to appeal to the TP. Therefore a Provisional throw is absolutely in order in this situation. How can you argue otherwise if you actually bother to read the rules?

 

[_MTL_]

If there is a reasonable debate whether or not the disc is in or out, how can it "clearly" be out? If the OB line itself is unclear, any close call is not clear at all, and you could most definitely argue that the disc is not OB and the group made a bad call, which you intend to appeal to the TP. Therefore a Provisional throw is absolutely in order in this situation. How can you argue otherwise if you actually bother to read the rules?

I'm not doubting that there is a reason to doubt the in bounds status of a disc. At all.

I'm just saying once you pick up the lie, how can you ever recreate the situation? And photo / video evidence isn't allowed either. Sure you can put it back but all someone has to say is "no it was acutally an inch this way" and then here ya go again.

If you did play a provisional, how is a TD going to make a ruling without actually seeing where the lie was?

And I know the rules and how to use them. I've marshaled two world championships and was just invited to marshal the 2014 pro worlds.

THE GROUP / OFFICIAL / TD HAS TO MAKE THE CALL AT THE TIME OF THE SITUATION. PROVISIONALS WERE NOT MADE TOMAKE CALLS THEY WERE MAKE FOR RULE INTREPRETATIONS.

 

[JoakimBL]

I don't care what you think they were made for, I care what the rulebook says. Even if you cannot use photos and videos, the players can state their case to the TD, and the TD can make a ruling based on those statements. There can be disagreements on what the line is supposed to be, if it isn't clearly marked. Or maybe there are two different markings. Could be there is both a painted line and a string, and they don't line up. Could be there is an argument over whether the sidewalk is OB or just the road. There are tons of situations where there could be a legit discussion whether or not a disc is out of bounds, and there is no way for the group to come to agreement. The ONLY proper way to solve a situation like that is to play out both scenarios. And it should not matter if the difference between the lies in question is an eighth of an inch or an eighth of a mile.
Before you go marshall at worlds again, please read up on rule 804.06

 

[Cgkdisc]

If the lie is "reasonably" the same regarding a dispute then you do not play out two sequences from what would be the same lie. Playing two sequences does not save time (per 804.06) and it also violates the precept of taking practice throws during the round. A provisional sequence should only be thrown when necessary. it usually is necessary but this discussion is about the exception that occurs every once in a while.

 

[Allurex]

If the lie is "reasonably" the same regarding a dispute then you do not play out two sequences from what would be the same lie. Playing two sequences does not save time (per 804.06) and it also violates the precept of taking practice throws during the round. A provisional sequence should only be thrown when necessary. it usually is necessary but this discussion is about the exception that occurs every once in a while.

Good to know. An instance like this occurred at AM Worlds Doubles a couple of weeks ago and we didn't play it twice. It was the exact same lie either way, so we just marked 2 different scores (with and without penalty) and solved it after the round.