Abandon lost disc throw and provisional?

[HyooMac]

Yes, the OP's situation story and their rationale still doesn't make sense.

The push for Provisionals are the end all be all to me is a big mistake we have made in disc golf.

Provisionals are great in certain situations but cannot ever
1. be something that makes something take longer.
2. Be something that creates an advantage
3. Be something that prevents a group from making a call

Standing on the tee, I might announce:

Because that first throw might be lost, I am going to throw this provisional shot.

IF it turns out that my first disc can't be found, I will take the stroke, and play the provisional as it lies;

IF my original disc is found O.B., we will determine the spot that it went out, and I will take a stroke and play my original disc;

IF my original disc is found in bound, I will play it as it lies, and pick up the provisional, with no penalty.​

Right? (Not that I'm advocating for speechifying on the tee, but I want to see if this is accurate).



Bonus question:

If my provisional throw appears to be lost (that's two throws in a row), do I just repeat the whole process, but this time adding a possible second penalty stroke?

 

[BillFleming]

a related question: a provisional is taken for lost disc. the disc is found way further down the fairway after the subsequent(2nd/3rd) throw. does the player get to use the found lie, or has it already been declared lost & therefore can't be used?

Depends.

1. Did the player or group call it lost? If so, then the provisional becomes the disc in play.
2. Has a determination not been made yet? It doesn't (almost) matter how many throws are made with the provisional. I think it would be like ball golf, once you have thrown your provisional past the point where your original disc could possibly be at, then the provisional becomes the disc in play.

Again, this is for a lost disc provisional. There are other times where the provisional stays in play until it is putted out. Heck, you can have two or three discs in play at times due to rules questions.

 

[Steve West]

Depends.

1. Did the player or group call it lost? If so, then the provisional becomes the disc in play.
2. Has a determination not been made yet? It doesn't (almost) matter how many throws are made with the provisional. I think it would be like ball golf, once you have thrown your provisional past the point where your original disc could possibly be at, then the provisional becomes the disc in play.

Again, this is for a lost disc provisional. There are other times where the provisional stays in play until it is putted out. Heck, you can have two or three discs in play at times due to rules questions.

It only matters whether the first disc has been looked for and declared lost, or not.

For example, the provisional throws might have all hit first available tree and the group hasn't gotten down the fairway far enough to begin a search. The disc would not yet be lost.

The golf rule about "once you have thrown your provisional past the point where your original disc could possibly be at" does not apply to disc golf.

 

[krupicka]

a related question: a provisional is taken for lost disc. the disc is found way further down the fairway after the subsequent(2nd/3rd) throw. does the player get to use the found lie, or has it already been declared lost & therefore can't be used?

The question is when did the group start looking for the potentially lost disc? Was a three minute timer started? Did that time expire?

Once a disc is declared lost, it doesn't matter when you find it, even if it is only 1/2 second later.

 

[Cgkdisc]

That would work if re-throw was the only option for missed mando or OB. But, because there are drop zones (sometimes required) it wouldn't always work.

Example: a disc fades out of sight and may be in the OB road. On the way to the disc, the player stops by the drop zone for OB to throw a provisional - in case the disc is OB, to save the walk back.

They can't find the disc, and no one saw it go OB, so it's lost. That provisional throw from the OB drop zone could not be used for the lost disc.


It does makes sense that any player who makes a re-throw as a provisional throw should also add "or in case the disc is lost". But because not all provisional throws are re-throws, the rules cannot always automatically force the use of the provisional throw in case of lost disc.


(Two meter is not an allowed condition because the lie is behind a mini placed below the disc or on a line back from the mini, so provisional throws can't save time in this case.)

That inconsistency can easily be handled in the proposed rule revision by stating if disc is not found (don't use term Lost Disc) once a provisional throw has been made specifically for a possible OB or a Missed Mando, the provisional throw is used.

 

[Steve West]

That inconsistency can easily be handled in the proposed rule revision by stating if disc is not found (don't use term Lost Disc) once a provisional throw has been made specifically for a possible OB or a Missed Mando, the provisional throw is used.

So, assume the disc missed the Mando or went OB?

 

[Cgkdisc]

So, assume the disc missed the Mando or went OB?

Yes. Essentially, if the disc is found to be inbounds and determined to not have missed the mando (if that was the reason for the provisional), the provisional is not used. Otherwise, the provisional is used.

 

[dmoore1998]

That inconsistency can easily be handled in the proposed rule revision by stating if disc is not found (don't use term Lost Disc) once a provisional throw has been made specifically for a possible OB or a Missed Mando, the provisional throw is used.

I think I like that...the only issue I can see is the following:

My understanding is you can basically throw a provisional whenever you want, regardless of whether your card agrees it is likely or even possible that you went OB or missed a mando.

I throw my drive into some very high grass that is not OB, but there is OB 100 feet away that I definitely didn't throw into.

I think I might have a hard time finding that disc...so I say "I'm throwing a provisional just in case I'm OB". I then proceed to a drop zone up the fairway and throw my provisional for a potential OB.

We can't find my disc, it's definitely not OB, everyone on the card knows it isn't going to be OB.

Do I get to play my lost disc that definitely isn't OB from my provisional I took much further up the fairway than I would have if I had to re-tee a lost disc?

Or do we just say that the drop zones in use should be for OB, missed mandos, AND lost discs?

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think I like that...the only issue I can see is the following:

My understanding is you can basically throw a provisional whenever you want, regardless of whether your card agrees it is likely or even possible that you went OB or missed a mando.

I throw my drive into some very high grass that is not OB, but there is OB 100 feet away that I definitely didn't throw into.

I think I might have a hard time finding that disc...so I say "I'm throwing a provisional just in case I'm OB". I then proceed to a drop zone up the fairway and throw my provisional for a potential OB.

We can't find my disc, it's definitely not OB, everyone on the card knows it isn't going to be OB.

Do I get to play my lost disc that definitely isn't OB from my provisional I took much further up the fairway than I would have if I had to re-tee a lost disc?

Or do we just say that the drop zones in use should be for OB, missed mandos, AND lost discs?

Not really an issue since even if the player takes "advantage" of throwing a provisional from the drop zone based on possibly going OB when it's not even close, and they do lose their disc in that high grass, they will still be taking a penalty stroke and also losing that disc. Isn't that sufficient penalty for the poor throw?

And yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea, to make forward drop zones the location for playing your next shot following a lost disc, standard practice. I may have started the practice of using forward drop zones in the event of discs being lost when we got a waiver to do so at Highbridge for the 2007 Worlds. All we did was specify that the short tees on every hole would be the drop zone for any tee shots that were lost. There are several downhill holes there where it wasn't uncommon for discs to be lost. Using the short tees as the DZs sped up play so players not only didn't have to climb back up the hill but it also meant they didn't have to risk losing another drive on their re-throw.

 

[_MTL_]

My understanding is you can basically throw a provisional whenever you want, regardless of whether your card agrees it is likely or even possible that you went OB or missed a mando.

This is incorrect.

Provisionals are used, as described in 809.02, to save time (im gonna throw from this drop zone here so I don't have to walk back in case I'm OB) or to appeal (the group says I must go to the drop zone, I disagree, I'm going to play from the drop zone and where I crossed out).

If you aren't appealing or aren't saving time, you simply cannot use a provisional. The group must agree it will save time.

 

[PMantle]

Maybe it's just the impression I got...but the initial story seemed to be very much in the vein of "I don't really want to find my disc so let's not look too hard because a lost disc is a huge advantage here"...coupled with the idea that a player gets to choose that it's lost (as opposed to a real ruling).

Oh no. This guy really wanted to find both discs. We tried hard. I am still finding briar tips in my skin.

 

[dmoore1998]

Not really an issue since even if the player takes "advantage" of throwing a provisional from the drop zone based on possibly going OB when it's not even close, and they do lose their disc in that high grass, they will still be taking a penalty stroke and also losing that disc. Isn't that sufficient penalty for the poor throw?

And yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea, to make forward drop zones the location for playing your next shot following a lost disc, standard practice. I may have started the practice of using forward drop zones in the event of discs being lost when we got a waiver to do so at Highbridge for the 2007 Worlds. All we did was specify that the short tees on every hole would be the drop zone for any tee shots that were lost. There are several downhill holes there where it wasn't uncommon for discs to be lost. Using the short tees as the DZs sped up play so players not only didn't have to climb back up the hill but it also meant they didn't have to risk losing another drive on their re-throw.

I think it's a sufficient penalty, I'm saying it's an issue because there are 2 different places you should play from...a re-tee for a lost disc and a drop zone for OB. You'd still have to play your provisional from the correct spot, which is 2 different places. That's why I was saying it's an issue UNLESS you make the drop zone also the place to play for lost discs...then it's no issue.

 

[dmoore1998]

This is incorrect.

Provisionals are used, as described in 809.02, to save time (im gonna throw from this drop zone here so I don't have to walk back in case I'm OB) or to appeal (the group says I must go to the drop zone, I disagree, I'm going to play from the drop zone and where I crossed out).

If you aren't appealing or aren't saving time, you simply cannot use a provisional. The group must agree it will save time.

The group has to agree it "may save time"...not that they think it is reasonably likely that a disc went OB. Though maybe that doesn't matter...my scenario was attempting to create a situation where a provisional definitely may save time because it is likely lost...but with a declaration that they are using it in case of OB. Really, that a provisional is allowed because it may save time, but the stated reason for the provisional is likely not the scenario that would save time.

Actually, now that I'm reading it more closely...there's nothing saying that a player has to declare the REASON for the provisional. It is only required that the provisional meet the criteria that it may be lost, OB, or have missed a mando. Which makes me wonder...is a provisional actually dependent upon a condition? If I throw a provisional, can I make it conditional upon going OB? Or is it just a provisional in case my disc is lost, OB, or missed a mando and I cannot pick and choose the conditions? I think the answer is you CAN make it conditional...but the rule doesn't necessarily specify that.

 

[Steve West]

...I may have started the practice of using forward drop zones in the event of discs being lost when we got a waiver to do so at Highbridge for the 2007 Worlds. ...

No waiver needed anymore:

805.03 Lost Disc
D. […] If a drop zone has been designated for lost discs on the hole, the player may throw from the drop zone instead of from the previous lie.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think it's a sufficient penalty, I'm saying it's an issue because there are 2 different places you should play from...a re-tee for a lost disc and a drop zone for OB. You'd still have to play your provisional from the correct spot, which is 2 different places. That's why I was saying it's an issue UNLESS you make the drop zone also the place to play for lost discs...then it's no issue.

As MTL points out, the player can't specify a provisional for an unlikely scenario such as the disc might be OB when OB is far out of range. If a group majority agrees it's okay to do so, a dissenter in the group could later appeal to the TD that this was a misplay or a deliberate misplay subject to DQ.

I'm also not sure what hole configuration might result in what you propose could happen. First of all, there would need to be a drop zone pretty far back from OB such that the player throwing into high grass would first have walk past the DZ and decide to throw a provisional from there before the group proceeds to look for the disc in the high grass. Since the group knows approximately where to look for the disc, I can't see the group allowing the player to throw a provisional based on the disc having possibly gone OB 100 feet ahead before trying to find the disc.

In the case where the drop zone is near the OB area and the group clearly saw the disc go into the high grass quite a bit short of the OB area, they are going to be looking for the disc for three minutes and either finding it or declaring it lost such that the thrower would be heading back to the tee and not forward to the drop zone. Of course, if the group decided to call the disc apparently OB even though it is way beyond where they were looking, the player would be playing from the DZ as their real throw and not a provisional. Again, someone in the group could later appeal the call to the TD as a misplay.

 

[Cgkdisc]

No waiver needed anymore:

Like I said, I believe what we did at Highbridge initiated the rule change that now allows marking forward drop zones for possible lost disc without needing a waiver. The tricky part comes in where a long hole has two drop zones and the TD has to specify which drop zone to use under what lost disc occurrences.

 

[PMantle]

So, in this case, can we/should we make it clear in the caddy book that the drop zone is for lost disc as well? I ask because the nature of this boundary is such that discs going OB are going to be very difficult to find.

 

[krupicka]

Yes, if the TD wants to allow the use of the DZ for lost discs, it should be placed in the course rules for the hole.

 

[_MTL_]

So, in this case, can we/should we make it clear in the caddy book that the drop zone is for lost disc as well? I ask because the nature of this boundary is such that discs going OB are going to be very difficult to find.

Yes. DGLO does it on hole 3 to avoid players having to walk back up the mountain. It's good to have not only on places like you are describing, but where a return to a tee would take a while which would severely back up play.

 

[Dcinmd]

But you are correct. Each group member has to reply and failure to give an answer / say "well I wasn't watching so I don't know" is a courtesy warning.

Is it a courtesy warning if I am returning a disc to my bag/cart and the next player out throw before I return my vision towards the course?

Often times, players are in such a rush to throw they do not give their cardmates the opportunity to watch.

And yes I had a cardmate get upset with me when he lost his disc in the above scenario.