Play from wrong disc then can't find correct disc

[rhatton1]

Player A mistakes Player B's disc for their own and throws from there. When they go to bag the disc they realise their mistake.

After searching for the allotted time they cannot find their own disc so it is called lost. The lie is the previous lie.

Are the Misplay and the Lost disc considered two separate "throws" and subject to two separate penalties or is this counted as one as per the below so just the most severe penalty is awarded, Lost Disc, stroke and distance?

QA-APP-1: Is there a priority order for which violation should count if more than one rule applies?

"Yes. The violation with the most severe penalty is applied. Ties are broken by what happened first. A single throw cannot be penalized for more than one violation"

QA-APP-2: When multiple violations have occurred on a single throw, how do I determine which rule was first violated, given that a rule has not been violated until the disc has come to rest?

The meaning of "first" in the rule is the common understanding of when the disc first enters a state where it is in violation of a rule. One common pair of rules that can be violated during a single throw are OB and Mandatory. In that case, you would compare when the disc last crossed into OB with when it crossed the mandatory line, and play whichever happened first.

Is it covered by this:
"QA-APP-9: When a throw is not used (such as an abandoned throw, an unused provisional throw, a throw that was interfered with, or an unplayed throw in doubles), penalty throws incurred by that throw are ignored. Which penalties are those, exactly?
Penalty throws for: out-of-bounds, hazard, missed mandatory, above two meters, stance, marking, taking improper relief, or lost disc. All other penalties and warnings apply."

So would it just be Lost Disc penalty and back to previous lie and forget about the misplay?

I think that's correct but I'm second guessing myself.

 

[acrosley]

I would argue the misplay is a practice throw which would be a one stroke penalty. And since that is a separate throw it could be enforced in addition to the lost disc penalty. Something sort or similar happened to Kyle Klein at DGLO this year IIRC

 

[biscoe]

I can see an argument for both the lost disc penalty and the misplay penalty being applied. I don't think the multiple violations occurred on a single throw. The disc was lost on the prior shot, not the one that was misplayed. If the disc had already been declared lost and then some form of misplay occurred on the following shot there would certainly be 2 penalties in play.

 

[rhatton1]

It's the laddering of offences/penalties that has me confused. I can't quite see the argument for a practice throw:

"A practice throw is any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie, except for a throw that is made either to set aside an unused disc or to return a disc to a player and that travels less than five meters in the air. A drop is not a practice throw. Practice throws are disregarded."

It's definitely a competitive attempt to change the lie. It's just done from the wrong lie. For me the issue here is whether the wrong lie and lost disc are part of the same or are different "throws" and should be treated separately. I think I agree with Biscoe in that it is two separate but it just doesn't quite feel right?

It came up as I was answering a Reddit post with an example trying to stop some of the tide of misinformation that was being spouted and then realised I had no idea how this example I was about to give should actually be treated So rather than add to the misinformation I thought I would seek some clarity from a wiser source!

 

[Cgkdisc]

Once the player has thrown from an incorrect lie, they have two choices. I believe they can continue playing from their new lie, knowing they'll get a 2-stroke misplay penalty, or they can just get a 1-stroke penalty and play from the lie produced from their original throw. (811F1.b). If that original throw is declared lost, they would get another penalty stroke and play from the previous lie.

So, when the player discovers they have lost their disc, they still have the choice to either be sitting 4 from their shot from the incorrect lie or be sitting 3 from the tee. I'm thinking the best choice might be to be sitting 4 presumably 2 shots closer to the hole than sitting 3 from the tee. Of course, it depends on the length of the hole and resulting lie from that second shot from the incorrect lie.

 

[Steve West]

Once the player has thrown from an incorrect lie, they have two choices. I believe they can continue playing from their new lie, knowing they'll get a 2-stroke misplay penalty, or they can just get a 1-stroke penalty and play from the lie produced from their original throw. (811F1.b). ...

It's not player's choice. See the lines after the list of types of incorrect lies:

If no subsequent throws have been made after the misplayed throw, that throw is disregarded. The player plays from the correct lie and receives one penalty throw for the misplay. [...]

Choosing to go ahead and make another throw in the sequence started from an incorrect lie would be in violation of

811 E. A player who deliberately misplays the course to gain competitive advantage may be disqualified in accordance with Section 3.03 of the Competition Manual.

The rest of 811 F. 1. (the [...] above) deals with the situation where the misplay is not discovered until after another throw had been made.

 

[BillFleming]

It's not player's choice. See the lines after the list of types of incorrect lies:



Choosing to go ahead and make another throw in the sequence started from an incorrect lie would be in violation of



The rest of 811 F. 1. (the [...] above) deals with the situation where the misplay is not discovered until after another throw had been made.

Steve,

Good points, but ultimately doesn't answer the real question. How many penalty points would the player take?

1: for the misplay and replay from the last spot
2: one for the misplay and one for the lost disc...and replay from the last spot
or something else?

 

[Cgkdisc]

It's not player's choice. See the lines after the list of types of incorrect lies:



Choosing to go ahead and make another throw in the sequence started from an incorrect lie would be in violation of



The rest of 811 F. 1. (the [...] above) deals with the situation where the misplay is not discovered until after another throw had been made.

While that may be true, if you consider the double jeopardy idea that the worst of two possible penalties should be applied, continuing to play from the incorrect lie throw would be a 2-throw misplay penalty versus the lost disc penalty which is stroke and distance. This is a situation where players might be savvy to play on from both lies provisionally and let the TD determine a "fair" judgment.

We had a similar situation in 2007 Pro Worlds with a combination of oddities such as playing from the wrong lie, player discovered it, then played from their correct lie, realized the rule at the time was to continue play from the wrong lie and switched back again. The ultimate resolution for their score was to simply count the number of physical throws made on the hole and add a 2-stroke misplay penalty which all parties agreed was a fair judgment call.

 

[biscoe]

Once the player has thrown from an incorrect lie, they have two choices. I believe they can continue playing from their new lie, knowing they'll get a 2-stroke misplay penalty, or they can just get a 1-stroke penalty and play from the lie produced from their original throw. (811F1.b). If that original throw is declared lost, they would get another penalty stroke and play from the previous lie.

So, when the player discovers they have lost their disc, they still have the choice to either be sitting 4 from their shot from the incorrect lie or be sitting 3 from the tee. I'm thinking the best choice might be to be sitting 4 presumably 2 shots closer to the hole than sitting 3 from the tee. Of course, it depends on the length of the hole and resulting lie from that second shot from the incorrect lie.

I disagree. Once the player has played one shot from the wrong lie and become aware of it, to continue play from that is a deliberate act subject to 811.E (A player who deliberately misplays the course to gain competitive advantage may be disqualified in accordance with Section 3.03 of the Competition Manual.)

The correct play once your initial misplayed shot is discovered is to take the penalty, disregard the shot, and play from your correct lie. Since the correct lie is the lost disc I think you are subject to both penalties as the lost disc penalty is actually applied in relation to the tee shot and the misplay penalty is applied in relation to the upshot (or putt or whatever). The only thing that even brings it into question is the funky timeline of realizing the disc is lost.

 

[Cgkdisc]

So, your ruling would be one drive plus lost disc penalty plus practice throw thus sitting 3 on the tee? Seems unintentionally excessive punishment but I agree it seems like the correct by-the-book ruling only because the player discovered the error after one extra throw versus holing out before discovering it. A case of unfortunate timing where the rules resulted in a less equitable judgment for essentially the same situation (IMO).

 

[biscoe]

So, your ruling would be one drive plus lost disc penalty plus practice throw thus sitting 3 on the tee? Seems unintentionally excessive punishment but I agree it seems like the correct by-the-book ruling only because the player discovered the error after one extra throw versus holing out before discovering it. A case of unfortunate timing where the rules resulted in a less equitable judgment for essentially the same situation (IMO).

Technically a misplay not a practice throw. What they are "sitting on the tee" is dependent on when a misplay penalty gets applied but under your math it would be 3.

Personally I think any misplay should be treated the same way regardless of when it is discovered and the penalty for lost disc is out of line with how we penalize everything else. If nothing else is going to be stroke and distance then why is lost disc? OB shots are quite often larger errors than shots which result in a lost disc. I would be fine with the old lost disc rule in lieu of stroke and distance. I would also be fine with stroke and distance for OB as well as for lost disc.

 

[rhatton1]

Technically a misplay not a practice throw. What they are "sitting on the tee" is dependent on when a misplay penalty gets applied but under your math it would be 3.

Personally I think any misplay should be treated the same way regardless of when it is discovered and the penalty for lost disc is out of line with how we penalize everything else. If nothing else is going to be stroke and distance then why is lost disc? OB shots are quite often larger errors than shots which result in a lost disc. I would be fine with the old lost disc rule in lieu of stroke and distance. I would also be fine with stroke and distance for OB as well as for lost disc.

Totally agree on the Lost Disc being too harsh and out of step with other penalties. It's always struck me as unfair that lead cards and filmed cards have an unfair advantage in this regard as the chances of them ever losing discs in future is slim with so many eyes on vs 10th card with no spectators. Hopefully courses move more and more towards less unnatural OB and so stroke and distance or a drop from water can be a fairer way to play in future. When unnatural OB is used to create fairways S and D just doesn't play.

 

[Steve West]

...This is a situation where players might be savvy to play on from both lies provisionally and let the TD determine a "fair" judgment. ...

Actually, no. As much as we encourage provisional throws, they can only be used 1. to save time (in certain situations) and 2. to appeal a ruling.

Even if provisional throws could save time here, that wouldn't change the ruling in this situation.

If not to save time, there needs to be an appeal. The group has to first make a ruling. Then, if any player wanted to appeal, the thrower could make a set of provisional throws.

You can't use a provisional set of throws to go "ruling fishing".

You also cannot use provisional throws to abdicate your responsibility to make rulings as a group.

 

[Rastnav]

There is a difference between making a determination and knowing what the rule is. If the card is uncertain about how the rule book applies in a given situation, playing a provisional makes perfect sense.

I think that the odds of a random card having clarity on what the rule is here is roughly nil, because multiple highly knowledgeable people in this thread are unclear, or in disagreement, about what the rule is.

As to application of the rules, what would happen if the disc was subsequently found, but found OB? Would both the OB stroke and the misplay stroke apply? I think it's the same principle, so I think the lost disc element here is making things more complex than they seem.

 

[ToddL]

801.02.H: A throw or an action that is subject to penalty under more than one rule is played under the rule that results in the most penalty throws; or, among rules that call for an equal number of penalty throws, the rule that was first violated.

Your drive was lost. Your misplay was your 2nd throw. Those are two separate throws, so they get their own separate penalties.

 

[Steve West]

There is a difference between making a determination and knowing what the rule is. If the card is uncertain about how the rule book applies in a given situation, playing a provisional makes perfect sense.

...

It does make sense, but the way the rule is written the provisional throws happen after the group has made a ruling and someone decided to appeal that ruling.

Going through that process can often result in clarity about what the rule is. Or may result in a ruling that no one needs to bother the TD about.

Making a ruling first is better than just saying "we need an adult". With the group ruling first, when you go to the TD the group has narrowed it down to the majority interpretation vs. the appealer's. And, the thrower should have played out both rulings provisionally.

 

[rhatton1]

It does make sense, but the way the rule is written the provisional throws happen after the group has made a ruling and someone decided to appeal that ruling.

Going through that process can often result in clarity about what the rule is. Or may result in a ruling that no one needs to bother the TD about.

Making a ruling first is better than just saying "we need an adult". With the group ruling first, when you go to the TD the group has narrowed it down to the majority interpretation vs. the appealer's. And, the thrower should have played out both rulings provisionally.

Playing a provisional when the group don't know the rule is not an abdication of responsibility. It's trying to do the right thing and make sure the round is played correctly when none of you are 100% sure of the rules in either a weirdly complex situation or even the most simple. Telling the group to effectively take a vote based on a lack of knowledge is an odd decision but I suppose effectively the rules as written force that. That's how rules misinformation spreads though. "oh we had a situation like this last month, that's how we played it out because there was a group decision...."

If there is doubt in the group as to how the rules should be applied the player should take a provisional and work it out with the TD after. IMO it's better than the group making a decision which turns out to be the wrong one and they get penalised after an overheard conversation a the clubhouse (we've all TD'd and had to add penalties like this before right?) , or doesn't ever get discussed again but said player gets away with something they've played incorrectly to the detriment of the whole field.

Group decisions put a lot of onus on the groups knowing the rules and the caddy book to a level at least on par of people discussing in this forum if not beyond. Whilst that sounds great you can see even at the top level of golf or any other big money professional sport it is unlikely that the players will have that level of knowledge. In an MA4 division what are the chances (actually pretty good with some of the MA4's I know!) .

We shouldn't put roadblocks up for people attempting to play correctly and by the rules. The "appeal a ruling" wording within the provisional rule does effectively do that. This idea that "the group made the decision so it's the decision" is inherently false anyway. The TD can always apply misplays at a later stage so why not give the best chance for the course to be played correctly a the time rather than ask groups to make poor decisions based on poor knowledge and have to miss things or penalise players later.

It's not like there is an issue with Provisionals being overused in the sport. If in doubt play a provisional. I feel another thread oncoming...


Coming back to the op I'm still not clear what the player should be penalised here. A provisional would not be required in this instance as it's definitely a group called Lost disc so the Lie is known and obvious. They are back at the previous lie with one penalty, just need to know if we then layer on a misplay penalty as well.

 

[chevis]

yes. the misplay is a separate throw, therefore separate (added) penalty. it does seem overly harsh, but like many penalties, you are punished for not paying close attention to things (in this case the disc you're throwing from).

 

[Steve West]

Playing a provisional when the group don't know the rule ....

There is a lot of merit to the idea of wording the provisional rule so that it could be used anytime there is any doubt.

However, that's not how it is now. A TD could, technically, say all the provisional throws were practice throws if there was no appeal. Just as they could if the thrower failed to declare that the extra throws were provisional.

I'm trying to inform everyone of how to legally use provisional throws under the current rules.

It is a huge priviledge to be allowed to try to get it right by being allowed to make extra throws. There needs to be some restriction on when that priviledge is used, just to keep everyone from throwing extra "provisional" throws off the cliff, or saying "that was provisional" after every tree hit.

Right now, the restriction includes a formal declaration of an appeal. Is that so hard?


The group needs to have some idea of the rule in order to know how to play each set of provisional throws. At least they have narrowed it down to "play it like this or that". Might as well pick one as the group ruling. If no one doesn't like it, and the thrower isn't worried that the TD might later call it a misplay, that's the ruling and the thrower plays it out with no provisional throws.

 

[chevis]

even though this thread should be over, i thought of a similar scenario: same situation as the op, but the thrower(p1) plays from/picks up the wrong disc as his own (looks identical) & puts in his bag. the other thrower (p2) can't find their disc & declares their disc lost then plays from their previous lie (+1stroke). then at some point after finishing this hole, p1 finally realizes he's got the wrong disc. by the rules both players get the 2 stroke misplay penalty (811.f). this seems really unfair to p2 (not only the stroke & distance lost disc penalties, but 2 more for misplay not even their fault). i don't see a way to address this to make it right, it doesn't appear we can use the fairness rule, though it is unfair that p2 is getting the misplay penalty. maybe with an appeal the td could use 801.03d & have p2 replay the hole; it does appear there has to be an incorrect interpretation of the rules for 801.03d to happen and i think i have the interpreted & applied the rules correctly.