Apply the "Ultimate" Stall Count?

[Cgkdisc]

In Ultimate, the defender (marker) applies what's called a Stall Count starting from 1 and counting up to 10 aloud so the player they are marking throws before the count reaches 10.
https://rules.wfdf.org/rules/2021/82-9-stall-count

Interesting way to borrow this procedure for disc golf might be to allow the players in the group to initiate a reverse Stall Count (10 down to 0) aloud once the player about to throw has officially not thrown after 30 seconds. If the count gets to 0 and the player has still not thrown, they receive a warning for the first infraction and 1 stroke penalty thereafter for further infractions. Maybe even allow the spectators to join the countdown once the count gets down to 3.

Of course, like a few rules that players typically don't call, it may take a while for this to catch on among players. However, if it appears a group is playing too slowly, this rule would empower a tournament official to step in and do the countdown as needed for a few holes to keep things moving. I could see initially only allowing the countdown to occur once a player is putting inside circle 2. Even if a player never gets a countdown applied, the fact the group might start talking any second would add another layer of pressure and potentially engage the spectators even more.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Note: This procedure would be more suitable as a PDGA and/or DGPT elite level competition rule should they wish to adopt it, not part of the basic disc golf rules.

 

[KillerKoala777]

I love this idea! Can you imagine Nikko doing his routine and then everyone just start yelling at him? I think after that happening a few times he would shorten his routine a bit.

 

[Rastnav]

I understand the desire to somehow get the 30 second rule to actually be applied, but imagine how this could go wrong.

Basically this is a license to engage in behavior that would otherwise be a courtesy violation. Player's about to take an important/missable putt and is near you in score? Loudly start counting as they begin their stroke. Plus you could already accomplish approximately the same thing right now, by just pulling out your phone, out of LOS of the player, and starting a timer and displaying the result to the group. That has far less potential for abuse.

Given that, I think tour players would be even less likely to use this proposed rule than what already exists. The proposal amounts to an opening for abuse, but doesn't solve the issue. I don't think you'll be able to solve the underlying issue until you have non-competing marshals with the groups (and, if that happens, you'll eventually end up with a system similar to the PGA's that only puts you on the clock if you actually fall behind the group ahead of you).

 

[Cgkdisc]

I understand the desire to somehow get the 30 second rule to actually be applied, but imagine how this could go wrong.

Basically this is a license to engage in behavior that would otherwise be a courtesy violation. Player's about to take an important/missable putt and is near you in score? Loudly start counting as they begin their stroke. Plus you could already accomplish approximately the same thing right now, by just pulling out your phone, out of LOS of the player, and starting a timer and displaying the result to the group. That has far less potential for abuse.

Given that, I think tour players would be even less likely to use this proposed rule than what already exists. The proposal amounts to an opening for abuse, but doesn't solve the issue. I don't think you'll be able to solve the underlying issue until you have non-competing marshals with the groups (and, if that happens, you'll eventually end up with a system similar to the PGA's that only puts you on the clock if you actually fall behind the group ahead of you).

It's not a courtesy violation to talk once 30 seconds has officially expired. Note that Ultimate players regularly have someone counting in their face and have to throw within the ten count. NBA players have to complete their possession within 24 seconds and it take less than 2 seconds for a player to catch and sink a 3-pointer from at least 23 feet.

 

[Steve West]

It's not a courtesy violation to talk once 30 seconds has officially expired. ...

So no one gets the wrong idea: It is a violation under the current rules.

 

[peabody]

So take course par/ times 30 seconds---
So on a par 70 course each player is given 35 minutes total. An official starts the timer for each player. Conserving your time becomes stratigic and would add a whole other level of intimidation to the competition.
When your time has expired all remaining shots carry a one stroke penalty.
30 second clock should be done away with because some shots require 10 seconds and some demand 60 seconds.

 

[Rastnav]

It's not a courtesy violation to talk once 30 seconds has officially expired.

There is currently no actual "30 seconds have officially expired", correct? I'm not clear on this, but I think this has to be both called and confirmed. Given that, I believe it would be a courtesy violation currently were someone to start counting after they believed 30 seconds to have expired. They could call the violation, and ask for a confirmation, correct?

I believe you are going to have to first establish how this "officially expired" would be arrived at. Again, players could easily enforce a 30 second rule right now by simply pressing start on a stopwatch that they are showing to the other members of the card. At a minimum, you would need to codify that the counting couldn't start until such action had been taken, which would just add a step to what could already be happening.

I don't see how this makes it more likely the rule is applied.

Note that Ultimate players regularly have someone counting in their face and have to throw within the ten count. NBA players have to complete their possession within 24 seconds and it take less than 2 seconds for a player to catch and sink a 3-pointer from at least 23 feet.

I think you are perhaps being sarcastic here, but if not.

The entire venue is silent when Olympic divers attempt their dives. Quiet signs are raised when golfers are preparing to play their shot. I don't see how what happens in an oppositional sport, and team based ones at that, applies to an individual sport played against the environment. Expectations are different, for good reasons. Heck, crowds are even silent during the play of a tennis match.

We could remove courtesy rules altogether, with the expectation that every disc golfer might carry a wireless speaker playing their favorite tunes, talking and yelling as they wished, and ignoring what anyone else, on their card or not, was engaged in at the moment. Disc vendors could roam the crowds, yelling "Get your Envies here! Get your blue and yellow Envies here!"

I expect that would not be well received.

 

[Cgkdisc]

So no one gets the wrong idea: It is a violation under the current rules.

Not if the player is calling the time violation on an official 30 second timing, correct?

 

[elmexdela]

in ultimate we would start yelling at about 7 or 8 and count up

if the countdown clock was initiated i hope we would get to start yelling to put the additional pressure on the player if they got down to the final few seconds

 

[Jukeshoe]

So take course par/ times 30 seconds---
So on a par 70 course each player is given 35 minutes total. An official starts the timer for each player. Conserving your time becomes stratigic and would add a whole other level of intimidation to the competition.
When your time has expired all remaining shots carry a one stroke penalty.
30 second clock should be done away with because some shots require 10 seconds and some demand 60 seconds.

This would lead to the undesirable result of people carrying chess timers around the course. :|

 

[Cgkdisc]

This would lead to the undesirable result of people carrying chess timers around the course. :|

Although there might be a way to do something like this with a smartphone app or add another feature to a Bushnell.

 

[Jukeshoe]

*immediately starts cornering the market on CE Chess Timers*

*resells on ebay for ri-dic-ulous prices*

 

[Future_Primitive]

Smart phone app and shock collars would eliminate the need for counting out loud. Build it into U-disc, "start timer on player x", two birds one stone. Live scoring and the shock clock.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Smart phone app and shock collars would eliminate the need for counting out loud. Build it into U-disc, "start timer on player x", two birds one stone. Live scoring and the shock clock.

After 30 seconds, Bordie's voice starts the countdown emerging from the Bushnell speaker box.

 

[Steve West]

Not if the player is calling the time violation on an official 30 second timing, correct?

Incorrect. Wait until the player has thrown (or is clearly not in the process of throwing) to call the excessive time violation.

812 Courtesy
A. A player must not: [...] 3. Engage in distracting or unsportsmanlike actions such as: [...] d. Moving or talking while another player is throwing,

There is nothing that gives you permission to distract another player just because they have committed a violation.

You also cannot yell "YOU DIDN'T MARK IT!" in the middle of a putt, as an example.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Incorrect. Wait until the player has thrown (or is clearly not in the process of throwing) to call the excessive time violation.



There is nothing that gives you permission to distract another player just because they have committed a violation.

You also cannot yell "YOU DIDN'T MARK IT!" in the middle of a putt, as an example.

You're supposed to call violations AFTER they happen. In the case of marking or foot fault, of course you don't/can't call a violation until after they've thrown to invoke the violation. In the case of timed requirements such as searching for a lost disc or not throwing in 30 seconds, if someone is officially timing it, they have the responsibility to call it when times up. In the case of not throwing in 30 seconds, if the player has initiated a throwing motion when 30 seconds is up, you wouldn't call it because the player hasn't violated the rule.

This proposal wouldn't change or even suggest tweaking the existing 30 second rule, so it's not a Rules Committee issue. It's proposed as a special competition rule for elite play where the PDGA and DGPT have additional rules or enhancements that go beyond the basic rule book.

 

[Steve West]

You're supposed to call violations AFTER they happen. In the case of marking or foot fault, of course you don't/can't call a violation until after they've thrown to invoke the violation. In the case of timed requirements such as searching for a lost disc or not throwing in 30 seconds, if someone is officially timing it, they have the responsibility to call it when times up. In the case of not throwing in 30 seconds, if the player has initiated a throwing motion when 30 seconds is up, you wouldn't call it because the player hasn't violated the rule.

That's almost logical.

Except that there is rule that says don't talk while someone is throwing.

If a disc was lost near another target and the three minutes for a lost disc expired just as a player from another group was starting to putt, it would be a courtesy violation to blurt out "three minutes is up".

Neither the three minute rule nor the 30 second rule needs to have a buzzer go off at the exact moment time is up. Waiting until the slow player has thrown to say: "That was clearly more than 30 seconds." is prompt enough.

For a lost disc, you could also take enough time to get back to the thrower so you don't have to shout to inform them the disc was officially lost a little while ago.

If someone is frozen in a putting position with the putter in their hand for 45 seconds, it would be a courtesy violation to say anything until after they putt.

If the next to throw is walking down the fairway to see where the basket is, calling the 30 seconds right when it expires would be appropriate - because they are not throwing. (The more sportsmanshipy thing to do would be to let them know they are burning through their 30 seconds.)

 

[GripEnemy]

That's almost logical.

Except that there is rule that says don't talk while someone is throwing.

. . .

Neither the three minute rule nor the 30 second rule needs to have a buzzer go off at the exact moment time is up. Waiting until the slow player has thrown to say: "That was clearly more than 30 seconds." is prompt enough.

. . .

If someone is frozen in a putting position with the putter in their hand for 45 seconds, it would be a courtesy violation to say anything until after they putt.

. . .

I'm the wrong guy to be in this thread, super NOT into tournament playing. That said:

Cgk has a point. Yes it says not to talk while someone is throwing, but if someone is throwing AFTER 30 seconds then the shot is null and void - doesn't matter if you talk during their throw because it won't count either way. They broke a rule and you called them on it.

Why shouldn't there be a buzzer? Either the 30 seconds rule is sufficient or it isn't. Either you putt in under 30 seconds or you don't...why not have a buzzer or someone yell out? You broke a rule.

Again, I'm not a tournament guy, also not trolling. Objectively speaking, yeah...opcorn:

 

[Rastnav]

AFTER 30 seconds then the shot is null and void - doesn't matter if you talk during their throw because it won't count either way. They broke a rule and you called them on it.

802.03 states that the penalty for excessive time is a one-stroke penalty. There isn't anything about rethrowing, so the throw isn't null and void.

I'll ask this again, more directly. Does the call for a 30 second violation need to be seconded to be confirmed as a violation? I believe it would be, but it's not precisely clear to me what, if any, calls by a member of the card do not need to be seconded. The rules don't seem to clearly delineate this.

Provided that it does need to be seconded, then one individual on the card doesn't even get to unilaterally decide that the violation has occurred. So even if the penalty was to rethrow (and wouldn't that be counter productive), the throw wouldn't be null and void until after the call was made and seconded, which properly should happen after the throw is complete.