BillyJackO's Form Adventure*

[billyjacko]

I'm very excited to put together my form thread. I regular /r/discgolf, and love DGCR for form improvement tips, so I'm going to put together a handful of video's from the last 1.5 years and explanations of where I was. I've owned disc's since 2010, but didn't really start playing with any kind of regularity and taking it seriously until August 2015. There were a 2 years of no throws before then. My goal is to throw really far =)

This is me from November 2015. I was pretty much a strong arming chucker. No real consistency with accuracy and distance. I probably was maxing out at 325' and would regularly hit 300'. This was the first time ever video taping myself and I immediately realized my x-step was backwards!


Here I am back February 2016. 'Fixed' the x-step, but still had all sorts of issues with foot placement, and still throwing with all arm. You can see here where my super long run up and open stance developed, and it's something I'm really fighting to get out of.



June 2016 saw me make some decent strides distance wise. I was hitting 350' with longs around 360' (I think I was calling it 375 back then.) Still a lot wrong with the long run up, planting in-line and open, spinning out on toe, absolutely no bracing, but there is a little hip action.




Now, this is where I went through an odd time. I increased my distance to 400' plus for like 3 weeks. I think I figured out how to get my hips involve, but just by accident, then I suddenly lost it. I went through a 3 month stretch of me furiously trying to get it back, but things were only getting worse. I started throwing standstills, which really helped me slow things down, and I was making a little progress back, but not consistently. January 2017, It was this video, along with a critique from Danny Lindahl that helped me break through a plateau. He basically said, "Pull on a more straight line, stand more upright and shorten your stride."


So I did, but I was still planting open, still a long stride, but the disc was flying farther with good consistent flight. February 2017, this video was taken two throws before I hit 300' with my putters for the first time, which was a huge milestone for me. I've really been concentrating on getting my butt moving toward the target, planting close, and letting my lower body do the work until the hit. I've been seeing good result, but there's a lot more work to do.


I'll be updating this thread as progress is made (and there's a lot of work to do), but feel free to chime in with suggestions. A big thing I've been working on that's going to take forever to fix is my early look back, ugh, disc golf is hard.

 

[@iDiscGolf]

First video your xstep is reversed. I've never seen that before I don't think. But in later videos it corrected itself

 

[billyjacko]

First video your xstep is reversed. I've never seen that before I don't think. But in later videos it corrected itself

I'm surprised I could throw it at all like that, lol.

 

[slowplastic]

I think you're going a bit too fast/stepping too far forward on the plant foot. You can't drop and drive into a closed front hip because of these reasons, and it starts opening as you're planting. Your head position also looks strained, like you're trying to crush it as hard as possible and you're leading with the head opening...although I don't really know what to tell you for how to fix this. Likely it's about getting into the brace balanced and using that to open/launch from, rather than leading with it.

 

[sidewinder22]

Not a huge fan of Roan's backswing, but closest to yours. Notice how more upright balanced and athletic he is and shifts his whole rear side forward stacked under the upper body. You are extremely flat footed and push off your rear leg tipping your upper body over the lower body pushing your shoulder forward, instead of pushing your rear hip/weight forward which moves you forward centered/upright and the shoulder follows along. Your stance is very wide horsestance and straddling the swivel chair which locks out your hips/chair swivel.

You can see how Jared's chin is braced forward leading the top the head and dynamically stacked/balanced on the front leg, so everything below his head shifted forward leading ground up, look how his rear knee is directly under his hip. Notice how your chin is lined up dynamically to the rear leg and you leave your lower body behind and crash/tip over the top, you are too late getting off your rear side/weight forward.

 

[billyjacko]

you are too late getting off your rear side/weight forward.

Could you explain this a bit more? If I'm over the top wouldn't it mean I shifted my weight forward too early? So the order mechanics should be Plant foot comes down, leg drives forward, crush the can, and at that point I should be in the power pocket. Where I'm more or less Plant foot comes down (basically flat and already "crushed can"), leg drives but a lot of it is wasted pushing around rather than swivel, and I'm in the pocket with my hips fallowing rather than leading?

I think a lot of my issues stem from the long plant, because the throws right after that S-Line P2 one (not on video) I shortened up the hop more, and the disc was booming. I threw that P2 320' measured which was further than my long with a putter by 25'.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

First video your xstep is reversed. I've never seen that before I don't think. But in later videos it corrected itself

My time reading through these threads, I think i've seen that twice before in videos posted here.


To the OP: I'm on a similar time line-ish and I wish I had a video log of the progress and ups and downs. Pretty cool to see, and I know I need to get some video together because i'm getting pretty close to a plateau on the self analysis side of this. Don't think I can add anything to the actual critique other than, try looking at the disc through the reach back and throw. I know if my head is turning back and i'm trying to crush like that my eyes are probably closed and my upper body is all out of balance.

 

[RistoS]

Could you explain this a bit more? If I'm over the top wouldn't it mean I shifted my weight forward too early? So the order mechanics should be Plant foot comes down, leg drives forward, crush the can, and at that point I should be in the power pocket.

When your weight isn't properly braced against the plant it allows for the upper body to tip over, and that's the case here. If you had properly "crushed the can", the heel of your back foot would be way off the ground by that point in the picture.

 

[slowplastic]

Could you explain this a bit more? If I'm over the top wouldn't it mean I shifted my weight forward too early? So the order mechanics should be Plant foot comes down, leg drives forward, crush the can, and at that point I should be in the power pocket. Where I'm more or less Plant foot comes down (basically flat and already "crushed can"), leg drives but a lot of it is wasted pushing around rather than swivel, and I'm in the pocket with my hips fallowing rather than leading?

I think a lot of my issues stem from the long plant, because the throws right after that S-Line P2 one (not on video) I shortened up the hop more, and the disc was booming. I threw that P2 320' measured which was further than my long with a putter by 25'.

Over the top means you shifted your upper body forward and/or are leading with it, rather than shifting your hips...which moves your whole body. Also don't think of it as "leg drives forward"...the goal is to shift your weight in balance and when you look at the footage afterwards you'll see your rear knee driving forward underneath your hip. You should be transferring to the plant while the plant is coming down, if you have already planted then there is nothing to really add to the shift at that point.

 

[billyjacko]

You should be transferring to the plant while the plant is coming down, if you have already planted then there is nothing to really add to the shift at that point.

Oh wow, that makes an assload of sense. I think that's really been my problem trying to get the foot down first before 'driving' or shifting as you call it. I've said this in other form Critique threads that it feels like the ground is too far away, and I can't get my foot down before opening. I think that all comes back to being late on the weight transfer, and thinking I needed to plant then drive. The thing that's helped me the most is incorporating an exaggerated x-hop, slowing the run up, and getting more upright. Also, focusing on my butt moving towards the target seems to help.

Here's a couple stills from the second to last video that show what I'm talking about. These represent how off my throw was, and this was caused by pressing. It's like learning to swing a bat left handed. So frustrating.

 

[slowplastic]

It's like learning to swing a bat left handed. So frustrating.

This is actually a great way to practice if you play baseball...the bat gives you good feedback if you know how it should feel the other way around.

Your front leg is planting way too far ahead of you. It is opening because it's so far ahead, and your leg is straight. Look at the pro's, their right knee is closer to under their right hip so they can shift/drop their hip (Hershyzer drill), whereas you're having to just reach with your front foot.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Oh wow, that makes an assload of sense. I think that's really been my problem trying to get the foot down first before 'driving' or shifting as you call it. I've said this in other form Critique threads that it feels like the ground is too far away, and I can't get my foot down before opening. I think that all comes back to being late on the weight transfer, and thinking I needed to plant then drive.

I think there maybe a change needed in your perception of the drive off the rear foot.
Watch the swivel chair drill then back to your most recent video with that in mind.
You are wanting to lead with the hip but see how it is still your shoulders leading the weight transfer, and then your hammering a break peddle with your leg instead of pushing the accelerator.

 

[billyjacko]

I think there maybe a change needed in your perception of the drive off the rear foot.

That's why I put 'Driving' in quotes. I know there's a decent amount of unlearning to do here lol. I'm realizing it's more of an uncorking pop than a push. It seems to happen in an instance for pros, where my weight is on the back foot while my upper body leads the weight shift, and then I push the rear leg around the axis. I thought I was doing it right because of stills like these;

But I realize now, that rear leg is turned in way late. This shows the hips are fallowing the upper body, and not the other way around. I'm starting to get it conceptually. It's if I can put in the time mentally and physically to actually be able to change. I'm working on over a year of bad habit development, so I know I need to be patient and keep working at it.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, it basically comes down balance and posture and is lot like learning to throw lefty especially if you are proficient with throwing in other sports. Your balance and posture are so weird during the throw, and it is going to feel extremely weird to you moving in more upright balance and posture. The still photo I posted of you vs Jared shows how your spine/head is lined up on your rear foot instead of your front foot. Jared's completely left the rear foot as the knee has moved under his hip. You aren't shifting your weight/balance/spine forward leading from the ground up. Tilted Spiral #2 and Head Position and Lag are extremely applicable and the Swivel Chair Drill. Your tilted spiral would not be perpetual as your lower spine ends up going around you in a roundhouse fashion. The level of your chin - base of your head/skull should be perpendicular to the front leg and easily shows whatever leg you are balanced on or crashing over. The One Leg Drill should help you feel what it's like to have everything stacked and balanced on the front leg and everything should feel effortless pivoting. Once you add the other leg/weight shift to the equation it opens up a can of worms as it becomes a dynamic stack and tilt and angulation, but the pivoting of your body should still feel effortless and upright balanced.

See how Shiffirn is shifting lower body laterally underneath the upper body to maintain balance inside posture moving back and forth and accelerate out of the turns. You would fly over your front leg/ski and face plant as the pressure on your front foot is on the outside edge vs the inside edge of the foot/ski with body dynamically stacked in posture/balance.

Ride the Bull:

 

[billyjacko]

Your tilted spiral would not be perpetual as your lower spine ends up going around you in a roundhouse fashion. The level of your chin - base of your head/skull should be perpendicular to the front leg and easily shows whatever leg you are balanced on or crashing over.

Please don't kill me Seabass. I filmed these inside with my phone on the floor, while practicing with a towel. I know, but it's all I've got to work with while I'm working. I did a couple one foot towel throws, then did these itty bitty x-step throws trying to really focus on keeping my weight on the inside of that plant foot and head stacked in line with the leg. Also, really concentrating on 'swiveling' rather than driving the leg. Same throw in both, second video is slowed down x1/8

 

[billyjacko]

It still looks like I'm tilting my head forward, hard to tell with the angle though. FML

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks better foot-wise, I'd rather see a sledgehammer in your hand than a towel. Looks like you are dropping your elbow and hugging yourself, not giving you space/power pocket to swing the disc through. Don't change the height of your elbow relative to your shoulders. Also keep your rear hand on your rear thigh.

 

[billyjacko]

Another angle of me messing with a towel. I'm really just concentrating on keeping my head in line with the plant foot. It's starting to feel more like a swing . I guarantee when I take this to the field I'm going to have a bunch of issues with nose angle, but I really feel like I'm starting to get it. I don't think I'll be able to throw a frisbee for another week, which sucks, but I'm just going to keep doing dingle arm, door frame, and swivel chair. I learned how to slow down multiple shots on one video, so this will be nice for future videos.

 

[billyjacko]

I tried to edit that last post before it expired, but didn't make it.
For some reason photo embedding isn't working for me right now, so here's a link to stills from sidewinder, and one from the vid above.
http://imgur.com/MZK7gVM

 

[slowplastic]

Lots of posture looks better, but you're not confidently shifting into the plant and you're definitely leaning back rather than getting on to the plant. I suspect this has to do with the indoor surfaces and doing a "controlled" motion rather than having the room and non-slip footing to let it happen.