Bottom of palm disc alignment: middle vs ball of palm

[disc-golf-neil]

Edit: With the disc resting at the top of the palm between the index and middle fingers, what is the impact of changing where the disc rests at the bottom of the palm, in the center gulley vs closer to the pinky side of the palm? And which is more common among advanced players?

Below is just one example of a player that I thought aligned it in the center gulley but appears not to, so now I'm wondering how common it is at advanced levels. I'm sure the center gulley of the palm is the most common alignment taught since it's so easy to align.

Based on this video of Eagle showing his grip:

I thought the disc was resting in the bottom middle of his palm crease which seems like a common place and common recommendation.

However, in the below picture, you can see (and it continues during his throw) that the disc is actually closer to the pinky side of the palm / near the ball of the palm.

What is the benefit of this, if any, compared to the disc resting in the middle of the bottom of the palm?

The screenshot is from 6:59 here:

 

[ru4por]

I am not convinced that the grip used by a top distance professional is necessarily a model for the other 99.9% of disc golf tee shots? He is trying to do a completely different thing, with a disc, than most of the rest of the world.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I am not convinced that the grip used by a top distance professional is necessarily a model for the other 99.9% of disc golf tee shots? He is trying to do a completely different thing, with a disc, than most of the rest of the world.

He's trying to throw it far on a drive, isn't that what everyone is trying to do on a drive?

An alternative question then is: what effect does this have "in general" on drives, say 300-400 feet range, not only for pros.

 

[BillFleming]

The issue with videos like the one in this thread is that you don't know the circumstance behind it. Does Eagle hold the disc like that ALL the time? Did Eagle hold the disc like that this time because he was intending to throw a specific line/angle that required him to hold it that way? (It appears he is aiming upwards.....was the throw a "sky hyzer"?).

 

[disc-golf-neil]

The issue with videos like the one in this thread is that you don't know the circumstance behind it. Does Eagle hold the disc like that ALL the time? Did Eagle hold the disc like that this time because he was intending to throw a specific line/angle that required him to hold it that way? (It appears he is aiming upwards.....was the throw a "sky hyzer"?).

It looked pretty consistent from this round. I paused whenever I could see a clear view. However, I didn't categorize each shot angle I saw it so I could be missing a pattern.

I believe he is more of a body angle guy rather than a grip / arm swing adjuster to change angles mostly though.

 

[EllEstar]

Honestly, if there's one guy I wouldn't try to emulate grip-wise it's Eagle. Not because he's so much better than me or anything like that, it's 2 different reasons.

1. Dude has freakishly long and limber fingers and limber wrists. I'm pretty sure his fingers can touch his forearm and he makes Ricky's fingers look stubby.
2. Dude throws with the most off-axis torque of any top level pro. I've tried to figure it out and I don't think it's his swing-plane or pronation/supination at the very end so I've settled on that it must be something about his grip and/or late acceleration.

As an actual answer, though; placing the disc thus would get your thumb more forward and giving you the option of having more of the meat of your palm on the disc. For me personally I throw more nose up and usually release a little earlier than I want, but that would probably depend on your hand's anatomy, grip strength and the exact particulars of your grip.

(P.S. Can you Blind the AP?)

 

[Sheep]

I am actively working on this topic.

But I have to wait to get someone to help me with the high speed, because I cannot run the high speed camera and throw at the same time.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Honestly, if there's one guy I wouldn't try to emulate grip-wise it's Eagle. Not because he's so much better than me or anything like that, it's 2 different reasons.

1. Dude has freakishly long and limber fingers and limber wrists. I'm pretty sure his fingers can touch his forearm and he makes Ricky's fingers look stubby.
2. Dude throws with the most off-axis torque of any top level pro. I've tried to figure it out and I don't think it's his swing-plane or pronation/supination at the very end so I've settled on that it must be something about his grip and/or late acceleration.

As an actual answer, though; placing the disc thus would get your thumb more forward and giving you the option of having more of the meat of your palm on the disc. For me personally I throw more nose up and usually release a little earlier than I want, but that would probably depend on your hand's anatomy, grip strength and the exact particulars of your grip.

(P.S. Can you Blind the AP?)

I can shadowstep into the future, what do you think?

I don't think this grip depends on long fingers but maybe they still help him. It actually feels like my fingers have a very slightly easier reach with it compared to when the disc is more centered in the bottom palm.

Plus, I think possibly a good amount pros do this and definitely a lot of people on Reddit claim they do and it helps them.

Why would you want more palm meat on the top flight plate?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I am actively working on this topic.

But I have to wait to get someone to help me with the high speed, because I cannot run the high speed camera and throw at the same time.

Awesome, everyone always explains the simple one about not putting the disc above the index finger due to nose up and instead align it with between index and middle, but i can't find anyone explaining the differences of the bottom palm alignment when the top part remains the same (between middle and index). The most I've heard is preference invoked but no explanation of possible mechanical implications of the alignment.

Where will you post this and how will I know when, just keep looking at the new threads?

 

[Sheep]

I can shadowstep into the future, what do you think?

I don't think this grip depends on long fingers but maybe they still help him. It actually feels like my fingers have a very slightly easier reach with it compared to when the disc is more centered in the bottom palm.

Plus, I think possibly a good amount pros do this and definitely a lot of people on Reddit claim they do and it helps them.

Why would you want more palm meat on the top flight plate?

The people on reddit will downvote you if you give good advice also.

I'd not listen to a single form anything from them. Their form check threads are awful.

Grip theory is really the least talked about thing. We don't study it, we just make wild things up about how we have to grip the disc and pour the coffee and serve the pizza and all this other dumb crap out there, nobody is actually trying to figure out what happens other than me from what I can tell.


Let me drive it this way.
What the pro's do is only an example to anyone trying to learn, the problem is all the important things for us, ourselves, is not taken into account.

How good is your wrist movements, hand movements, flexability.
Form type, height of form throw, etc. All these really important things.
WE are just told to hold the disc a certian way in our hand and power grip it, then people throw nose up, and we just say "pour the coffee harder" or something like that, And we need to be looking at grip.

Because whats the one other really annoying thing out there?
I'll teach people to throw and show them nothing about grip, but they throw nose down.
Why?
I don't have this answer, but as soon as you try and teach some people who normally throw nose down naturally grip stuff, or grip anything, they start throwing nose up.
Because the shitty coach thinks the important thing is to fix that persons grip and they end up screwing that persons natural ability and instincts.

 

[Sheep]

Awesome, everyone always explains the simple one about not putting the disc above the index finger due to nose up and instead align it with between index and middle, but i can't find anyone explaining the differences of the bottom palm alignment when the top part remains the same (between middle and index). The most I've heard is preference invoked but no explanation of possible mechanical implications of the alignment.

Where will you post this and how will I know when, just keep looking at the new threads?

I'll eventually post it on you tube and be annoying about it in here. =)


What I'm trying to look at mechanically is disc pivot from the hand and actual leverage were putting on the disc, vs some made up crap we are referencing currently.
And with some of that data and other grip stuff, trying to figure out what is the true "nose" of the disc when throwing.

And when we have that particular dataset, we can then look at a player and focus on grip in a more educated way to get them throwing nose down as we can set the disc up in their hand to actually achieve the nose angle.

Because currently, it's taught that the nose of the disc is just in front of your index finger when you throw.
And that's so hysterically untrue that I propose we actually hit anyone with a yardstick that says it from here forward.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

The people on reddit will downvote you if you give good advice also.

I'd not listen to a single form anything from them. Their form check threads are awful.

Grip theory is really the least talked about thing. We don't study it, we just make wild things up about how we have to grip the disc and pour the coffee and serve the pizza and all this other dumb crap out there, nobody is actually trying to figure out what happens other than me from what I can tell.


Let me drive it this way.
What the pro's do is only an example to anyone trying to learn, the problem is all the important things for us, ourselves, is not taken into account.

How good is your wrist movements, hand movements, flexability.
Form type, height of form throw, etc. All these really important things.
WE are just told to hold the disc a certian way in our hand and power grip it, then people throw nose up, and we just say "pour the coffee harder" or something like that, And we need to be looking at grip.

Because whats the one other really annoying thing out there?
I'll teach people to throw and show them nothing about grip, but they throw nose down.
Why?
I don't have this answer, but as soon as you try and teach some people who normally throw nose down naturally grip stuff, or grip anything, they start throwing nose up.
Because the shitty coach thinks the important thing is to fix that persons grip and they end up screwing that persons natural ability and instincts.

That's a good point about if they already naturally throw nose up maybe don't tell them to change their grip, they can experiment with it later as they settle into the rest of their form and it's easier to isolate and test something.

However, if their are, say 5, very common grips the pros use as their primary / default, chances are one of them will fit you better than the others and possible feel quite good overall and result in a shortcut to solid grip if you tried the top ones rather than a random sampling or the first thing that felt good to hold (might not feel or be good to throw).

Now if every pro is way bigger than you then it might not help, but usually their are some normal sized pros, too.

The chances a new player comes up with something novel entirely on their own that is very good are small. So I still think sampling pro form to find a start is best, then modify to novelty from there.

 

[Sheep]

That's a good point about if they already naturally throw nose up maybe don't tell them to change their grip, they can experiment with it later as they settle into the rest of their form and it's easier to isolate and test something.

However, if their are, say 5, very common grips the pros use as their primary / default, chances are one of them will fit you better than the others and possible feel quite good overall and result in a shortcut to solid grip if you tried the top ones rather than a random sampling or the first thing that felt good to hold (might not feel or be good to throw).

Now if every pro is way bigger than you then it might not help, but usually their are some normal sized pros, too.

The chances a new player comes up with something novel entirely on their own that is very good are small. So I still think sampling pro form to find a start is best, then modify to novelty from there.

Pro form is a way to see things that work, figure out that key point, and then look at how to best use that position of power from their form.

So, one way you can use pro form to help someone is when someone naturally does some things another pro does, so you can reference that persons form to help get them in line without making massive changes to a persons form.

But for trying to outright emulate any pro, you're trying to emulate something they have spent 15 years working on and developing for their body and their movements.

I had an argument with someone who told me I was stupid because they wanted help because they were emulating everything that simon does and they wanted to get further throw. They threw like 250 feet maybe 280 based on looking at their form video.
The person then proceded to argue with me how wrong I was cause he was doing everything simon did. Which he wasn't, I digress.

The little things people dont know is what us coaches are here for. To see the important details that drive the in your face things.
This is something I deal with when I teach shearing. Everyone is paying attention to what my right hand is doing. Which is 10% of the work. Not the 90% of the work my other hand and my 2 feet are doing to hold the animal and move it around.
Trying to emulate pro form is basically doing that, emulating the 10% because you cannot see the other 90%. And even us as coaches cannot see all of that 90% because we have no data on how to see how they are engaging some muscles, or what they are thinking about at that split second.

So, how do we teach that other 90%?
We cant. Not in either place.
You can be shown the movements, the places, the positions. but you have to personally figure out how to make them work and sing and be in harmony through practice.

So, the reality of teaching in a lot of things is you can really only teach maybe 50-70% of the overall skills needed to be 100%

So, you gotta look at where you're at learning when it comes to emulating others. Do you wanna build your form off of 10% of available data, or 50 to 70%?



Also also, I said naturally nose down, not nose up.

People who think they are experts hurt them by trying to change their grip to be "proper" and cause them to throw nose up. And it will out right ruin their game. That's the whole crux of what i'm saying here. Grip is super important for us to focus on, but were not going to get any real data from pro players, they throw what they found works for them and their body flexibility.

What we need to understand is what changes when we start moving the disc around in our hand for our grip and how it affects the nose angle for the attack of the throw.

I've thrown some insanely wierd unconventional grips when I was looking into this a few years ago, because I really really struggle with nose up throwing. I got plenty of speed. 60-70 range on speed, but my discs go 350 and stall. Why?
Nose up, but were talking 1 or 2 degree's.
And that's all it takes for a great shot to turn to complete shit.

And in some of these wierd grips that make absolutely no sense whatsoever, the disc comes out nose down/on plane. So, there is a lot of room to learn here.

 

[Kennets]

I've been playing for nearly 3 years (being injuried most of the time to be fair) and I've NEVER found found a comfortable grip for "power".


I can't get my thumb directly in the flight plate, its always "rolling left" somehow. Getting the thumb more towards the center of the disc does the trick, but hurts my joint in the long run...

Halp...

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Pro form is a way to see things that work, figure out that key point, and then look at how to best use that position of power from their form.

So, one way you can use pro form to help someone is when someone naturally does some things another pro does, so you can reference that persons form to help get them in line without making massive changes to a persons form.

But for trying to outright emulate any pro, you're trying to emulate something they have spent 15 years working on and developing for their body and their movements.

I had an argument with someone who told me I was stupid because they wanted help because they were emulating everything that simon does and they wanted to get further throw. They threw like 250 feet maybe 280 based on looking at their form video.
The person then proceded to argue with me how wrong I was cause he was doing everything simon did. Which he wasn't, I digress.

The little things people dont know is what us coaches are here for. To see the important details that drive the in your face things.
This is something I deal with when I teach shearing. Everyone is paying attention to what my right hand is doing. Which is 10% of the work. Not the 90% of the work my other hand and my 2 feet are doing to hold the animal and move it around.
Trying to emulate pro form is basically doing that, emulating the 10% because you cannot see the other 90%. And even us as coaches cannot see all of that 90% because we have no data on how to see how they are engaging some muscles, or what they are thinking about at that split second.

So, how do we teach that other 90%?
We cant. Not in either place.
You can be shown the movements, the places, the positions. but you have to personally figure out how to make them work and sing and be in harmony through practice.

So, the reality of teaching in a lot of things is you can really only teach maybe 50-70% of the overall skills needed to be 100%

So, you gotta look at where you're at learning when it comes to emulating others. Do you wanna build your form off of 10% of available data, or 50 to 70%?



Also also, I said naturally nose down, not nose up.

People who think they are experts hurt them by trying to change their grip to be "proper" and cause them to throw nose up. And it will out right ruin their game. That's the whole crux of what i'm saying here. Grip is super important for us to focus on, but were not going to get any real data from pro players, they throw what they found works for them and their body flexibility.

What we need to understand is what changes when we start moving the disc around in our hand for our grip and how it affects the nose angle for the attack of the throw.

I've thrown some insanely wierd unconventional grips when I was looking into this a few years ago, because I really really struggle with nose up throwing. I got plenty of speed. 60-70 range on speed, but my discs go 350 and stall. Why?
Nose up, but were talking 1 or 2 degree's.
And that's all it takes for a great shot to turn to complete shit.

And in some of these wierd grips that make absolutely no sense whatsoever, the disc comes out nose down/on plane. So, there is a lot of room to learn here.

Would you expect a 2 finger power grip to create a cleaner release and therefore more RPM if their fingers were strong enough to not accidentally early release?

 

[Sheep]

Would you expect a 2 finger power grip to create a cleaner release and therefore more RPM if their fingers were strong enough to not accidentally early release?

I don't know what a 2 finger power grip is.

 

[timothy42b]

Because currently, it's taught that the nose of the disc is just in front of your index finger when you throw.
And that's so hysterically untrue that I propose we actually hit anyone with a yardstick that says it from here forward.

You mean 180 degrees in front? Not geometrically possible. And does it rip off or spin off?

But if you feel the disc pull on your finger, then the disc was going a different direction from your hand. I would love to know exactly what that looks like.

But here's a question on that palm grip. In some photos just before release, it looks like McBeth and others have the arm at about 30 degrees down and the disc level. That sure looks like the hand is over the top of the disc with the fingers gripping but space over the palm. If that were true, there would be very little resistance to the disc flipping out like everybody thinks it does. That pretty much can't happen with the recommended beginner grip in the crease, right?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I don't know what a 2 finger power grip is.

Maybe it's no longer called a power grip but just to do a normal power grip and then remove the pinky and ring finger to leave only 2 fingers.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Honestly, if there's one guy I wouldn't try to emulate grip-wise it's Eagle. Not because he's so much better than me or anything like that, it's 2 different reasons.

1. Dude has freakishly long and limber fingers and limber wrists. I'm pretty sure his fingers can touch his forearm and he makes Ricky's fingers look stubby.
2. Dude throws with the most off-axis torque of any top level pro. I've tried to figure it out and I don't think it's his swing-plane or pronation/supination at the very end so I've settled on that it must be something about his grip and/or late acceleration.

As an actual answer, though; placing the disc thus would get your thumb more forward and giving you the option of having more of the meat of your palm on the disc. For me personally I throw more nose up and usually release a little earlier than I want, but that would probably depend on your hand's anatomy, grip strength and the exact particulars of your grip.

(P.S. Can you Blind the AP?)

How do you know eagle throws with the most OAT? He does it intentionally to flip hyzers?

 

[EllEstar]

How do you know eagle throws with the most OAT? He does it intentionally to flip hyzers?

Because I watch a lot of disc golf and a lot of slow mo. And no, I don't think so, but I also don't think he sees it as an issue in need of fixing.